William Hague dismantles Yes position post referendum.

[eurosceptic]

Finally got to read william hague's demolition of the yes scare tactics. An excellent well argued piece. In order of sequence he dismantles the following.
1) Ireland will be alone in opposing lisbon - A new tory government will call a referendum on lisbon which is certain to be defeated. & "It is equally true that the majority of Irish voters are not alone in rejecting a more federal future for Europe. In Lisbon's earlier guise as the EU constitution it was rejected by the French and the Dutch. Polls showed that voters in up to 16 EU member states would have rejected Lisbon had they been given the chance to vote."

2) There is a international perception that we rejected europe by voting no - "First, it is clear that Ireland's No was not a No to Europe, any more than the French and Dutch rejections were; it was a pro-European No. There is no evidence that this vote represented a rejection of the EU or its ideals: a continent united in peace and co-operation."

3) The people are wrong to say no in referendums - " When voters reject a cherished proposal it is wiser for politicians to ask, not "why have the people got it so wrong", but "how have we got it wrong ".

4) The complexity of the treaty put yes voters off so referendum not justified - "How good can a treaty be if, after months of national debate, its merits cannot be comprehensibly explained?" & "one might as well argue against elections on the grounds that most voters aren't experts on tax law or the finer points of education policy."

5) There is no common defence pact in Lisbon (Ireland retains neutrality) - "Lisbon would mean exactly that, whether it is the bigger role for the EU in defence, including a mutual defence commitment."

6) Under Nice we lose our commissioner next year - "On that point it is worth noting that the current treaties require unanimous agreement for any new arrangement on the number of EU commissioners. So talk of Ireland automatically losing a commissioner unless Lisbon goes through is wildly misplaced."

7) One country shouldn't be allowed block a treaty - "The EU is a union of democratic sovereign nation states and if the electorate of one EU country rejects a treaty then that should be that."

8) The Eu will be in crisis without lisbon - "Moreover, the rejection of Lisbon does not actually present any real problem for the EU. Contrary to all the froth about an enlarged Europe's desperate need for the EU constitution/Lisbon Treaty to work efficiently, the quiet truth is that the EU is in fact working perfectly well under the current treaties."

A pity that one of our own opposition TD's couldn't bring themselves to say this.

[Magror14]

Yes, Eurosceptic, now that the irish people have voted no, the time has come for Ireland to put it's trust in the British Tory party.

Hague is making assertions. If you like them they are nice. If you don't they aren't.

[Grumpy Fogey]

If I can't say something nasty about a Tory I say nothing.

[yehbut_nobut]

6) Under Nice we lose our commissioner next year - "On that point it is worth noting that the current treaties require unanimous agreement for any new arrangement on the number of EU commissioners. So talk of Ireland automatically losing a commissioner unless Lisbon goes through is wildly misplaced."

Does that mean Cowen has veto on whether we lose a commisioner?

That 's a turnip for the books, although personally I've never had a problem with giving Splutterguts McCreevey his marching cards.

[FutureTaoiseach]

He makes excellent points.

[fatcat]

Finally got to read william hague's demolition of the yes scare tactics. An excellent well argued piece. In order of sequence he dismantles the following.
1) Ireland will be alone in opposing lisbon - A new tory government will call a referendum on lisbon which is certain to be defeated. & "It is equally true that the majority of Irish voters are not alone in rejecting a more federal future for Europe. In Lisbon's earlier guise as the EU constitution it was rejected by the French and the Dutch. Polls showed that voters in up to 16 EU member states would have rejected Lisbon had they been given the chance to vote."
2) There is a international perception that we rejected europe by voting no - "First, it is clear that Ireland's No was not a No to Europe, any more than the French and Dutch rejections were; it was a pro-European No. There is no evidence that this vote represented a rejection of the EU or its ideals: a continent united in peace and co-operation."
3) The people are wrong to say no in referendums - " When voters reject a cherished proposal it is wiser for politicians to ask, not "why have the people got it so wrong", but "how have we got it wrong ".
4) The complexity of the treaty put yes voters off so referendum not justified - "How good can a treaty be if, after months of national debate, its merits cannot be comprehensibly explained?" & "one might as well argue against elections on the grounds that most voters aren't experts on tax law or the finer points of education policy."
5) There is no common defence pact in Lisbon (Ireland retains neutrality) - "Lisbon would mean exactly that, whether it is the bigger role for the EU in defence, including a mutual defence commitment."
6) Under Nice we lose our commissioner next year - "On that point it is worth noting that the current treaties require unanimous agreement for any new arrangement on the number of EU commissioners. So talk of Ireland automatically losing a commissioner unless Lisbon goes through is wildly misplaced."
7) One country shouldn't be allowed block a treaty - "The EU is a union of democratic sovereign nation states and if the electorate of one EU country rejects a treaty then that should be that."
8) The Eu will be in crisis without lisbon - "Moreover, the rejection of Lisbon does not actually present any real problem for the EU. Contrary to all the froth about an enlarged Europe's desperate need for the EU constitution/Lisbon Treaty to work efficiently, the quiet truth is that the EU is in fact working perfectly well under the current treaties."

A pity that one of our own opposition TD's couldn't bring themselves to say this.

Hardly anything new in what Hague has said. Our Sinn Féin TDs and MEPs have been saying this as have our exTD Joe Higgins and exMEP Patricia McKenna.

[eurosceptic]

Magror14. You should look at my final comment. Why does it take a tory to point out the truth. Why do our own parliamentarians (Government + FG & Lab) shy away from making statements of fact like this. Does the truth hurt too much?

[geraghd]

This is not groundbreaking stuff guys. On many of the points I didn't even hear people on the Yes side argue, as presented here he doesn't even argue against statement 2, and his argument (though I see some of it) is somewhat flawed in statement 4. And in Statement 1 (again don't know anyone who said that we would be alone in opposing Lisbon) he doesn't actually address the fact that all states (given current ratification processes) are likely to ratify Lisbon, except of course for Ireland.

[fatcat]

Magror14. You should look at my final comment. Why does it take a tory to point out the truth. Why do our own parliamentarians (Government + FG & Lab) shy away from making statements of fact like this. Does the truth hurt too much?

So Sinn Féin and independents are not parliamentarians?

[FutureTaoiseach]

This is not groundbreaking stuff guys. On many of the points I didn't even hear people on the Yes side argue, as presented here he doesn't even argue against statement 2, and his argument (though I see some of it) is somewhat flawed in statement 4. And in Statement 1 (again don't know anyone who said that we would be alone in opposing Lisbon) he doesn't actually address the fact that all states (given current ratification processes) are likely to ratify Lisbon, except of course for Ireland.

The Tories have made clear they will withdraw the UK signature from the Treaty if it isn't ratified in all member states including Ireland when they get into office. And as the latest issue of Village Magazine shows from the discussions of VB with a Eurocrat, the Treaty can't come into force without Ireland's ratification of it, and furthermore we can't be left behind by the others.