How would overturning Crotty impact Irish party politics?

[Toman13]

That is possibly correct.

There would, however, have been general elections -- several of them, in fact.

So you oppose referendums?

[ibis]

In some ways I think FF and Lab are most interesting in terms of how they proceed with regard to Europe as both imho have more to lose if Europe becomes a real political football. I say this because my sense is that the general support base on both contains a wider span of views on the issue than FG's or SF's. Perhaps that's why they've been sticking their toe in thr sceptic's water.

Possibly - on the other hand it's hard for them to challenge the government without also adopting a 'critical' stance on Europe. And, to be fair, they've never hesitated to use Europe as a scapegoat. For FF, it's just about FF. Possibly I was the only person in the country who didn't realise why they pulled out of government when they did - February 2011....because losing the next election any later than that would have meant losing the chance to be in government at Easter 1916. FF are always thinking about elections.

[an modh coinniolach]

Possibly - on the other hand it's hard for them to challenge the government without also adopting a 'critical' stance on Europe. And, to be fair, they've never hesitated to use Europe as a scapegoat. For FF, it's just about FF. Possibly I was the only person in the country who didn't realise why they pulled out of government when they did - February 2011....because losing the next election any later than that would have meant losing the chance to be in government at Easter 1916. FF are always thinking about elections.

Don't worry I'm convinced of the cynicism of all the main parties especially FF. As I said though referendums provide something of a firewall for them on the issue particularly at a time when the more traditional wing of the support base is vulnerable to SF. People can make solo runs , avoid the issue or vociferously back Europe in a referendum and still fit in the FF tent (apologies for the multiply-mangled metaphor). On the other hand growing anti-EU sentiment without the outlet of a referendum means that FF either has to lead the opposition to Europe at the next election or be overtaken by SF.

[wombat]

On the other hand growing anti-EU sentiment without the outlet of a referendum means that FF either has to lead the opposition to Europe at the next election or be overtaken by SF.

They have been overtaken by SF in the opposition stakes, they are really rudderless at present, they have allowed SF & the leftwing parties to set the agenda on opposition to everything. The media are giving free reign to the "Down with that sort of thing" proponents. If there is a referendum, the PS and farmers will see what side their bread is buttered on and vote accordingly. In 2007, people voted in the hope that FF would pull a stroke and save the building industry, its people's personal economy that determines their support.

[Toland]

So you oppose referendums?

Not always. Euro referenda, however, have been a repetitious farce ever since the McKenna judgment, which imo is even worse than the Crotty decision.

[Socratus O' Pericles]

Read Noel Whelan's article, which the thread is based on. This is the most relevant paragraph in it



The thread title and first post, could be worded slightly better, but you're reading of it is still miles off. The first sentence in the thread puts it well though.

This Noel Whelan:

http://http://www.politics.ie/forum/...-election.html

tenderloins banged him to rights years ago!

[Grumpy Jack]

Possibly - on the other hand it's hard for them to challenge the government without also adopting a 'critical' stance on Europe. And, to be fair, they've never hesitated to use Europe as a scapegoat. For FF, it's just about FF. Possibly I was the only person in the country who didn't realise why they pulled out of government when they did - February 2011....because losing the next election any later than that would have meant losing the chance to be in government at Easter 1916. FF are always thinking about elections.

Wouldn't count on that, if I was Mickey Martin - the Blueshirts have worked out that if this govt lasts to the absolute limit of its term and within the Constitutional requirements laid down for General Elections, then Enda will be on the review stand outside the GPO as Taoiseach come Easter Monday 2016, followed by the GE a couple of weeks later.

Work it out for yourselves, folks

[ibis]

Wouldn't count on that, if I was Mickey Martin - the Blueshirts have worked out that if this govt lasts to the absolute limit of its term and within the Constitutional requirements laid down for General Elections, then Enda will be on the review stand outside the GPO as Taoiseach come Easter Monday 2016, followed by the GE a couple of weeks later.

Work it out for yourselves, folks

And they'd have to push it right to the wire to do that, which is just great optics for the GE. Not sure the GE would be a couple of weeks later, though, given Easter Monday is the 29th March that year and it's a Leap Year.

Sad either way...

[myksav]

As far as I'm aware, reversing Crotty would not deprive you of the vote.

True, citizens would still have the franchise to vote in General Elections, Local Elections, Presidential Elections. With, possibly, the franchise for European Parliament Elections.
And they wouldn't need that franchise for EU Treaties as the voters would not be asked their opinion.
Sweet.

[ger12]

Not always. Euro referenda, however, have been a repetitious farce ever since the McKenna judgment, which imo is even worse than the Crotty decision.

Funny. I was delighted that we had a referendum commission during the (flawed) Oireachtas inquiry referendum. McKenna and Crotty were patriots.

"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred".
Niccolo Machiavelli