Europe's Day - Europe's Choice

[He3]

BBC News - Did Germany sow the seeds of the eurozone debt crisis?

This Radio 4 three part series looks useful. It looks back at the misgivings overlooked when the euro was designed, and at the blind eye turned when Germany and France smashed the budget rules that were sold as essential and effective safeguards.

At a time when we are tempted to accept the advice of Germany and France once more, in despair at our own leadership failures, this is worth remembering.

German Finance Minister Schaeuble is admirably candid on a key point that we seem to miss here - how Germany deals with other countries will be designed to best advance German interests.

Nothing controversial in that, but it does raise the question for us as we consider the latest treaty medicine prescribed for us - why should we continue down a path where our country's decisions must comply with rules intended to advance the interests of another country?

Especially as we already know that those very rules have been broken by those who now again insist we subscribe to them?

This is not easy. The stakes are very high. We cannot afford any more mistakes and that means figuring out how to make better decisions fast. I think there are some valuable insights in Garrett O'Connor's work on how we approach challenges and how we relate to authority here.

<Mod> This thread has been merged with "Germany and France sowed the seeds of the Euro crisis". </Mod>

[wombat]

Nothing controversial in that, but it does raise the question for us as we consider the latest treaty medicine prescribed for us - why should we continue down a path where our country's decisions must comply with rules intended to advance the interests of another country?

We need to decide if the rules suit us or not. This agreement will have effects on our pockets. We need to look at it with a clear head, if its in our interest we should support it. There will be other occasions when we can show our gratitude to our "European friends"

[sondagefaux]

The treaty means that nobody gets away with breaking the rules. It gives Ireland as much say in Germany's budgetary process as Germany has in Ireland's.

[Al.]

BBC News - Did Germany sow the seeds of the eurozone debt crisis?

This Radio 4 three part series looks useful. It looks back at the misgivings overlooked when the euro was designed, and at the blind eye turned when Germany and France smashed the budget rules that were sold as essential and effective safeguards.

At a time when we are tempted to accept the advice of Germany and France once more, in despair at our own leadership failures, this is worth remembering.

German Finance Minister Schaeuble is admirably candid on a key point that we seem to miss here - how Germany deals with other countries will be designed to best advance German interests.

Nothing controversial in that, but it does raise the question for us as we consider the latest treaty medicine prescribed for us - why should we continue down a path where our country's decisions must comply with rules intended to advance the interests of another country?

Especially as we already know that those very rules have been broken by those who now again insist we subscribe to them?

This is not easy. The stakes are very high. We cannot afford any more mistakes and that means figuring out how to make better decisions fast. I think there are some valuable insights in Garrett O'Connor's work on how we approach challenges and how we relate to authority here.

Wow. Some at the BBC are actually catching on, and not following the liberal line that they usually push.

It seems that the world has forgotten that an aggressive Germany does not necessarily have to be National Socialist, too. World War I pitted Europe against the Second Reich, for those that do not remember. Barroso wasn't kidding when he said the EU is an empire, and Otto von Habsburg did say which Empire.

France offers no advice of their own; they merely parrot what Germany says. The EU always advanced German interests, right from its beginnings in the 50s.

[JCR]

Another day another 'the Germans are coming to get ya' thread. If you read the article what you actually see is that it implies strongly that the Germans don't appear to want to have to wield their influence. Which of course is the opposite of the mantra of a lot of people whp love to paint the EU as some sort of nouveau German empire. Which is a bit like what used to be called 'hysteria'.

[JCR]

Wow. Some at the BBC are actually catching on, and not following the liberal line that they usually push.

It seems that the world has forgotten that an aggressive Germany does not necessarily have to be National Socialist, too. World War I pitted Europe against the Second Reich, for those that do not remember. Barroso wasn't kidding when he said the EU is an empire, and Otto von Habsburg did say which Empire.

France offers no advice of their own; they merely parrot what Germany says. The EU always advanced German interests, right from its beginnings in the 50s.

Pitiful nonsense.

[southwestkerry]

So Germany are a bit 2faced. Well I never....

[southwestkerry]

The treaty means that nobody gets away with breaking the rules. It gives Ireland as much say in Germany's budgetary process as Germany has in Ireland's.

I bet.

[Hewson]

The EU is democratic in name only. In reality it was always going to end up like this, the collective being reduced to its powerful core, Germany and France. This core will drive change in which ever direction it sees as being best for the collective, as they see it. If positive benefits for the smaller and weaker economies correspond with the needs of the bigger economies, well and good. If not, then that's part of the price to be paid for membership of a club where your size determines your influence.

The question is, what are we prepared to settle for in return for the obvious benefits of staying inside? Further loss of sovereignty? Because make no mistake, that's what lies ahead.

[He3]

Another day another 'the Germans are coming to get ya' thread. If you read the article what you actually see is that it implies strongly that the Germans don't appear to want to have to wield their influence. Which of course is the opposite of the mantra of a lot of people whp love to paint the EU as some sort of nouveau German empire. Which is a bit like what used to be called 'hysteria'.

That is too easy JCR but you run into a couple of problems. First it requires you to disbelieve Schaeuble. Second to overlook the content of the series that are at odds with your 'bash the Germans' claim. For instance, the Polish Minister saying he fears German inaction more than German power.