The Eurozone is stabilising

[seenitallb4]

Its only purpose was to fund global wars.

It is also a fairly handy way of allowing us to live beyond our means, to distract us from our lack of competitveness, to expand state involvement in our economy, and to replace actual wealth creation with a serious of bubbles. And it is ideal for sneaking in the ultimate of all taxes- inflation and debt.

[MPB]

To coin a famous phrase SilverSpurs, "You're entitled to your own cold hard opinions, but you're not entitled to your own cold hard facts". Plenty of "cold hard facts" have been marshalled on both sides of the argument. In fact, the relentless stream of disambiguated 'factlets" extrapolated into doomsday scenarios has been one of the more irritating postures adopted on P.ie throughout the currency crisis. At this stage, there is IMO little perspective to be gained by homing in on isolated developments (like every shaving of half a cent off the value of the Euro represents some kind of disaster). Hence my attempt to take an overview in the OP.

For sure, the FT (like the CBI and a few other outliers) has adopted positions on Britain's position in the EU that don't marry well with the wider feeling of Euroscepticism in the UK. But the Telegraph does little else on Europe than magnify that cosy Tory consensus about the continentals, their funny little bananas and their evil little ways. I'll at least give the FT some credit for not being a one-dimensional anti-EU cheerleader like practically every other media outlet in the UK.

Similarly, on P.ie the preponderance of posters with views on the EU is of the distinctly Eurosceptic variety. So I wouldn't get too snippy if I were you about the occasional pro-EU poster (like myself) who ventures onto this site. Pro-EU posters have to deal with hordes anti-EU "cheerleaders" as a matter of course.

Forget about pro EU and anti EU for a minute and take a little time to concentrate on Ireland.

It might help explain exactly what is going on in the rest of Europe at the moment.

We are adding to our Sovereign Debt in order to recapitalise Private Banks, in order for those Banks to repay private debt owed to the Private Banks of bigger more powerful EU countries.

Now, please tell me where a country with a deficit of 20 odd billion and an unemployment rate of 500,000, is going to raise enough taxes to repay this Sovereign Debt?

We and other smaller EU economies are being used to bailout the Private Banks of larger EU economies.

How long do you think that this can last?

How much austerity do you think people can take?

We are paying reparations for a Bank run ponzi scheme that collapsed.

[McDave]

Ah, God help youse. In case you haven't noticed, your lot call the shots in determing the social choice (tyranny) for all of us. So if you can't handle a few restless natives who have had enough of this technocracy, then I am sure there are a myriad of pro EU forums out there.

The awful thing for you is that if the Eurozone stabilises, you're out of a job!!!

[Magror14]

I would be a visceral fan of the Euro but I don't think it is out of the woods yet by a long shot. People have been nurturing an optimistic approach to the world economy over the last year but it is likely that this is the result of the "money" being pumped into the economy by governments since the crash. That infusion is about to end and deficits will either get worse and/or severe austerity measures will be imposed. If it is the latter then they will only work if governments can get across the message that the hardship will be temporary.

The key element here is politics and the ability of governments to provide leadership. Leadership is unlikely to be in much supply in Greece and Italy. For some reason I have more faith in the Spanish who I like to think have a depth of culture and experience which includes temporary austerity measures. That is just a hunch.

If the PIGS are not able to take the pain then the German electorate will not support a government which wants to go on supporting them through the Euro. Just as an aside, Irish people should be getting tears of pride at the ICTU vote to support the Croke Park agreement. We will not be sorry we did that.

Of course we can say that the Euro is all about the economics but it isn't really. For a large number of people the Euro is a great idea (and it should be for the Germans who are among the biggest exporters in the world). The key is getting the political message across that we need the Euro for the long haul. Even with this economic setback the economies of Europe are converging and the case for a common currency becoming more and more unanswerable.

[Cassandra Syndrome]

It is also a fairly handy way of allowing us to live beyond our means, to distract us from our lack of competitveness, to expand state involvement in our economy, and to replace actual wealth creation with a serious of bubbles. And it is ideal for sneaking in the ultimate of all taxes- inflation and debt.

+1

Between that and the Fractional Reserve money multiplier, they have made a right pigs ear of civilisation.

Still, I have faith in Schumpeter's Creative Destruction model.

[McDave]

Forget about pro EU and anti EU for a minute and take a little time to concentrate on Ireland.

It might help explain exactly what is going on in the rest of Europe at the moment.

We are adding to our Sovereign Debt in order to recapitalise Private Banks, in order for those Banks to repay private debt owed to the Private Banks of bigger more powerful EU countries.

Now, please tell me where a country with a deficit of 20 odd billion and an unemployment rate of 500,000, is going to raise enough taxes to repay this Sovereign Debt?

We and other smaller EU economies are being used to bailout the Private Banks of larger EU economies.

How long do you think that this can last?

How much austerity do you think people can take?

We are paying reparations for a Bank run ponzi scheme that collapsed.

Not all countries got into this problem. Some of the bigger or richer countries (e.g. Germany, Switzerland) are in the business of building capital reserves which they can lend on to the likes of us. They're still doing it.

And it's not all one way traffic. If they lend and we borrow, then we have to repay our debts. For sure the irresponsible behaviour of the last decade or so has led to major imbalances for which there will be painful consequences for some. Where austerity is required, it will have to be sucked up. It doesn't matter what people want. They have to live up to their responsibilities. The alternative is to be hung out to dry in a highly competitive and unsympathetic world. No-one owes us a living.

[Cassandra Syndrome]

The awful thing for you is that if the Eurozone stabilises, you're out of a job!!!

Freudian slip?

If the Eurozone was about proper capitalism, I would be singing its praises. But its not. It is corporate and statist and will fail. Who are they to decide what a market is and how it should neatly fit into their self interested agenda?

[seenitallb4]

If you want to save the Euro, then there has to be debt restructuring.

[McDave]

I would be a visceral fan of the Euro but I don't think it is out of the woods yet by a long shot. People have been nurturing an optimistic approach to the world economy over the last year but it is likely that this is the result of the "money" being pumped into the economy by governments since the crash. That infusion is about to end and deficits will either get worse and/or severe austerity measures will be imposed. If it is the latter then they will only work if governments can get across the message that the hardship will be temporary.

The key element here is politics and the ability of governments to provide leadership. Leadership is unlikely to be in much supply in Greece and Italy. For some reason I have more faith in the Spanish who I like to think have a depth of culture and experience which includes temporary austerity measures. That is just a hunch.

If the PIGS are not able to take the pain then the German electorate will not support a government which wants to go on supporting them through the Euro. Just as an aside, Irish people should be getting tears of pride at the ICTU vote to support the Croke Park agreement. We will not be sorry we did that.

Of course we can say that the Euro is all about the economics but it isn't really. For a large number of people the Euro is a great idea (and it should be for the Germans who are among the biggest exporters in the world). The key is getting the political message across that we need the Euro for the long haul. Even with this economic setback the economies of Europe are converging and the case for a common currency becoming more and more unanswerable.

+1

[Magror14]

Freudian slip?

If the Eurozone was about proper capitalism, I would be singing its praises. But its not. It is corporate and statist and will fail. Who are they to decide what a market is and how it should neatly fit into their self interested agenda?

CS I see you are a fan of Schumpeter. You and Alan Greenspan who spectacularly failed to predict the crash in his book "Age of Turbulence" published in 2007.