Merkel wants option of excluding members from euro zone

[The_Big_Fellow]

When I (and others) made the point prior to Lisbon that fiscal union was the next logical step, that noises towards CCCTB would be happening almost as soon as the ink was dry on Ireland's ratification, I was essentially called a liar by a number of posters here (mostly FGers, for some reason). When I said that it was openly spoken about in political and media forums on the continent, there were actually people telling me I was wrong, that it wasn't. It WILL happen. Yes, we have the 'sovereign right' to say 'no'. But the political reality and the mother of all guilt-trips (as we saw at both Lisbon and Nice when we dared to vote the 'wrong' way) will ensure that we will do as we're told.

As to Merkel, nice to see Germany cracking the whip again. Let's hope they keep it metaphorical....

Monetary union cannot work with out fiscal and complete political union. A U.S.E state.

Olivia O'Leary had an excellent reading on the Lisbon treaty regarding Lisbon. Not its merits or otherwise but how the debate was framed in Ireland. It explored the idea, of Ireland being ruled for so long by others, that we had lost our confidence in self-rule.

We had come out of the Shadow of Britain and now we were desperately seeking protection in Europe. The debate re:lisbon in other states was based on threats of national catastrophe or how we needed Europe or God help us.

FG traditionally have had an uncomfortable view of Ireland and its ability to stand on its own two feet. Many of them have managed to hold on to the old insecurities and prejudices against Irish Nationalism, Culture etc. People can only blame the Provo's or the civil war so long. It goes a lot deeper in their psyche.

(FYI: I'm from a FG family, but we were always brought up to be self reliant and proud of our country, as are many FG'ers - their is a group amongst them though ... and i'm not talking about prod's. I suppose they would best be described as the rotten borrough of politics that were led by James Dillon. People who felt Irish, but unduly attached to Britain, and its structures in Ireland.)

[kerdasi amaq]

how would we repay the couple of hundred billion in personal debt, all denominated in Euro? Rock claims that a 2-3% rise in interest rates would destroy us - leaving the Euro would be that multiplied many times over. Again, basic economics.

Simple, introduce the new Punt at the old rate, 1 Punt=1.27, print up enough of them to give every citizen say 500,000 each(non-nationals and other blow-ins need not apply). Those who are in debt have to use their money to pay off as much of their debt as they can, the bankers have to accept the money at that rate(if they don't like it, then that is their punishment for their fiscal recklessness and bad banking practices) and the new punt is then allowed to float and to find its own level. That should work.:mrgreen:

[hiding behind a poster]

Simple, introduce the new Punt at the old rate, 1 Punt=1.27, print up enough of them to give every citizen say 500,000. Those who are in debt have to use their money to pay off as much of their debt as the can, the bankers have to accept the money at that rate(if they don't like it, then that is their punishment for their fiscal recklessness and bad banking practices) and the new punt is then allowed to find its own level. That should work.:mrgreen:

I don't think one single post has ever caused me to laugh so much. And to think economics is called "the dismal science".

[kerdasi amaq]

Remember to turn out the lights then, HBAP, you'll be the last one to leave!

[supamolli]

1. The 27 member states are still legally sovereign (and the word 'legally' is crucial - if you don't believe this, read the German Supreme Court decision of last June on the Lisbon Treaty).

According to the Lisbon Treaty, it's the ECJ that interprets the Lisbon Treaty, not any other court.

[hiding behind a poster]

Remember to turn out the lights then, HBAP, you'll be the last one to leave!

Under your theory, the lights (along with all the money) would be long gone already.

[hiding behind a poster]

We will be put through the same ordeal as before. We will be guilt-tripped into acquiescence. Our 'sovereignty' counts for little when it's just re-run if it goes the 'wrong' way.

TA, you seem to be one of several posters here with a fundamental misconception of what Enhanced Cooperation actually is. What it is is a means by which, if all 27 states can't agree to do something, a smaller group can press ahead anyway - BUT what they go ahead with only applies in their own states. So if, for argument's sake, France, Germany and a few others agreed a CCCTB, they won't be guilt-tripping us into acquiescence, because they won't need our signature in the first place. And its not just us. The Brits will never buy into it, nor will most of Eastern Europe. And once its done, it won't affect in any manner any company registered in Ireland that trades in those countries (unless you believe FutureTaoiseach's fantasy about Corporation Tax, a tax on profits, also being sales tax, a tax on sales). Indeed, if the CCCTB, which, lest we forget, would be a harmonisation within those countries of the way in which corporation tax is calculated in those countries, increases the tax liability of companies registered in those countries, we would actually do even better than previously - as even more non-EU companies that wanted to trade in the EU would locate in the non-CCCTB countries.

It's a bit more than that though, isn't it? What she's essentially proposing is that the so-called 'core' (essentially them and the French) can threaten the 'periphery' (including us) with what would amount to economic annihilation...

No, its an old saying - he who pays the piper, calls the tune. It applies to countries, corporations, small businesses, households and individuals. The fact that the governments of the likes of ourselves and Greece copped out of fiscal responsibility in search of electoral success means that we the people have to suffer the consequences of that. Why would you lend either Greece or Ireland money to pour down a hole, unless they committed to measures to close the hole? Germany is simply doing what any responsible lender should do. If ourselves and Greece don't like it, no-one's forcing us to accept the Germans' terms. We can always look elsewhere.

But will we find such favourable terms elsewhere?

[hiding behind a poster]

Simple, introduce the new Punt at the old rate, 1 Punt=1.27, print up enough of them to give every citizen say 500,000 each(non-nationals and other blow-ins need not apply). Those who are in debt have to use their money to pay off as much of their debt as they can, the bankers have to accept the money at that rate(if they don't like it, then that is their punishment for their fiscal recklessness and bad banking practices) and the new punt is then allowed to float and to find its own level. That should work.:mrgreen:

So what currency would Euro-denominated personal debt be paid off in?

[CookieMonster]

Well you used the word "jettison", which means to cast away. That suggests that countries wouldn't be given a choice. If you'd wanted, you could have said there might in future be a voluntary exit mechanism.

But you didn't.

No, I didn't. That was simply the name of the thread that was discussing the Munchau article. Stop being pedantic.

[kerdasi amaq]

In Punts, at a legally set rate of 1 Punt nua to €1.27. If that causes the banks to lose money, well tough, they'll have to eat it! The way things are going the country will be totally ruined; which is, probably, Fianna Fail's secret purpose of existence!

No, I don't think you understand. Irish mortgage debt was borrowed from Eurozone banks, by Irish banks, in Euros. Therefore it must be paid back to those banks, in Euros.

hbap

That's the banks problem, not the Nation's.:mrgreen: