EU Army

[Catalpa]

I'm willing to give any of the posters who think that there will be conscription to an EU Army €1,000.00 if any Irish citizen living in Ireland is conscripted into an EU Army or any other EU military force between now and 31/12/2010.

If that doesn't happen, then all you have to do is start a thread called 'No Irish citizens conscripted by EU in 2010'.

You don't have to pay any money if you lose, just start a thread.

The bet can be started up again for 2011, 2012 and so on.

Have any of ye got the guts to take the bet?

Your missing the point

- its the State itself that will be conscripted

Conscripts are a legacy of the Age of Massed Armies when the bulk of fire power was literally in the hands of individual soldiers.

Now conscription is more a political than a military determination for some States.

Today its not the size of armies but their technlogical mastery than determines their military effectiveness.

Seeing as we represent less than 1% of the total population of the EU (a ratio that will further decrease as other States join)

- then our ability to contribute in any meaningful way - in terms of numbers committed - to future Wars waged by or against the European Union will be minimal.

But as a constituent State of the EU be under no doubt we will be expected to be 'on message' and play the role expected of us in Future Wars.

And believe you me there will be those Wars.

[The Field Marshal]

Your missing the point

- its the State itself that will be conscripted

Conscripts are a legacy of the Age of Massed Armies when the bulk of fire power was literally in the hands of individual soldiers.

Now conscription is more a political than a military determination for some States.

Today its not the size of armies but their technlogical mastery than determines their military effectiveness.

Seeing as we represent less than 1% of the total population of the EU (a ratio that will further decrease as other States join)

- then our ability to contribute in any meaningful way - in terms of numbers committed - to future Wars waged by or against the European Union will be minimal.

But as a constituent State of the EU be under no doubt we will be expected to be 'on message' and play the role expected of us in Future Wars.

And believe you me there will be those Wars.

Excellent post Catalpa hitting the nail on the head.

This is the real fear those opposed to an EU army have.

Being such a small country Ireland views would not carry decisive weight.

Everyone saw what happened to Ireland when it went off message
after Lisbon 1.

[sondagefaux]

Your missing the point

- its the State itself that will be conscripted

Conscripts are a legacy of the Age of Massed Armies when the bulk of fire power was literally in the hands of individual soldiers.

Now conscription is more a political than a military determination for some States.

Today its not the size of armies but their technlogical mastery than determines their military effectiveness.

Seeing as we represent less than 1% of the total population of the EU (a ratio that will further decrease as other States join)

- then our ability to contribute in any meaningful way - in terms of numbers committed - to future Wars waged by or against the European Union will be minimal.

But as a constituent State of the EU be under no doubt we will be expected to be 'on message' and play the role expected of us in Future Wars.

And believe you me there will be those Wars.

Can you point out the bits of the EU Treaties that will compel Ireland to take part in any future wars that might be waged by the EU?

[Catalpa]

I have no problem with this as an eventual goal, provided all involved are willing. A pan european army could do a lot of good around the world in terms of peacekeeping and serve as a soft power alternative to NATO. It would also save inordinate amounts of money, and provide for greater overall security throughout europe. Looking at this logically, this is a no-brainer.

For those of you who feel that an idea such as this would be tantramount to using Irish Troops as cannon-fodder, remind yourself about how small a contingent Ireland would realistically represent in such a venture. Soldiers joining this force would understand there would be risks, as all soldiers do when they join up no matter what the army. Also think to yourself how difficult it would be to pursuade that many member states to take military action for an erronious reason - it is far more dangerous to have military power in the hands of a single nation state that can act unilaterally IMO.

To be honest, I have also long thought that Europe would be better served by granting powers of investigation and arrest in stictly defined circumstances such as cross border organized crime and human trafficking to Europol, in the same ways that govern the FBI in the US. To me, opposition to such a plan can only come from appeals to nationalistic emotion and not clear thinking.

I have no problem with this as an eventual goal, provided all involved are willing. A pan european army could do a lot of good around the world in terms of peacekeeping and serve as a soft power alternative to NATO.

Er ever heard of the United Nations?

We (and other nations around the World) have been contributing to UN Peace Missions for decades

We are a member of the UN - its HQ is in New York BTW

Here's the Link:

Defence Forces - Ireland and the United Nations

We don't need the EU to engage in Peacekeeping Missions!

To be honest, I have also long thought that Europe would be better served by granting powers of investigation and arrest in stictly defined circumstances such as cross border organized crime and human trafficking to Europol, in the same ways that govern the FBI in the US. To me, opposition to such a plan can only come from appeals to nationalistic emotion and not clear thinking

Then you would be handing over the powers of arrest over you and any other Irish Citizen to organizations that are not accountable to the Irish People.

That is fundamentally Undemocratic!

[The Field Marshal]

I have no problem with this as an eventual goal, provided all involved are willing. A pan european army could do a lot of good around the world in terms of peacekeeping and serve as a soft power alternative to NATO.

Er ever heard of the United Nations?

We (and other nations around the World) have been contributing to UN Peace Missions for decades

We are a member of the UN - its HQ is in New York BTW

Here's the Link:

Defence Forces - Ireland and the United Nations

We don't need the EU to engage in Peacekeeping Missions!

To be honest, I have also long thought that Europe would be better served by granting powers of investigation and arrest in stictly defined circumstances such as cross border organized crime and human trafficking to Europol, in the same ways that govern the FBI in the US. To me, opposition to such a plan can only come from appeals to nationalistic emotion and not clear thinking

Then you would be handing over the powers of arrest over you and any other Irish Citizen to organizations that are not accountable to the Irish People.

That is fundamentally Undemocratic!

How true.

Concerned Irishman is not concerned really about Ireland or its democracy.

His downgrading of national pride is typical of the brainwashed attitude that the EU have successfully inculcated in the less intellectually robust.

Blind faith in the EU as an institution superior to all things Irish is the last refuge of the traitor.

[Catalpa]

Can you point out the bits of the EU Treaties that will compel Ireland to take part in any future wars that might be waged by the EU?

I think you have just answered your own question.

[sondagefaux]

I think you have just answered your own question.

No. I think you're dodging the question. The answer is that the EU doesn't have the powers to wage war nor do the EU treaties give the EU any powers to compel members of the EU to take part in any war.

[The Field Marshal]

No. I think you're dodging the question. The answer is that the EU doesn't have the powers to wage war nor do the EU treaties give the EU any powers to compel members of the EU to take part in any war.

You may be legally correct.

Socially and culturally it is a different matter.

Law usually follows social and cultural trends.

The EU is deliberately downgrading by propaganda all nationalistic social and cultural issues within the EU.

This is being done as groundwork to prepare EU member states to accept a federated EU with its own army.

The EU think tanks are operating on a decades long agenda which patiently works towards long term goals.

[sondagefaux]

You may be legally correct.

[The Field Marshal]

Poor old Sondefaux.

Actually believes that all these written treaties are unchangeable!

Written in stone like the 10 commandments.

He does not ever for a moment consider that circumstances could change that would ever even cause his precious treaties to be revised or changed.