EU Army

[Grumpy Jack]

Thank you Ibis.

What happens when soft power fails?
I can not accept that the status quo wrt to EU militarization and EU treaties will prevail over the next decade.

Grand, Ireland has a veto.
When the howling Balubas are at the gates we can wave it at them.

Im sure you recall the hysteria when Ireland alone killed Lisbon 1 .
There were very dark mutterings that Ireland could be quietly ejected and sidelined by the EU.

You cannot in all seriousness believe that should every member in the EU decide that they want an EU army that Ireland could prevent it happening.

Ireland could prevent it happening. The Government could simple use its veto and say no. Even if it does say yes it will still need a referendum and the Irish people can say no.

The question is will an Irish government use that veto? That we cannot answer with certainty.

However, I just cannot see the circumstances where an Irish government would attempt to put a referendum allowing Irish involvement in EU defence to the Irish people. The attachment to neutrality and opposition to EU military expansions are too great. It simply would not pass.

And there is no argument the government could use to scare the bejaysus out of people into voting Yes because nothing could trump the possibility of Irish soldiers being killed in some 'EU war'.

[The Field Marshal]

Ireland could prevent it happening. The Government could simple use its veto and say no. Even if it does say yes it will still need a referendum and the Irish people can say no.

The question is will an Irish government use that veto? That we cannot answer with certainty.

However, I just cannot see the circumstances where an Irish government would attempt to put a referendum allowing Irish involvement in EU defence to the Irish people. The attachment to neutrality and opposition to EU military expansions are too great. It simply would not pass.

And there is no argument the government could use to scare the bejaysus out of people into voting Yes because nothing could trump the possibility of Irish soldiers being killed in some 'EU war'.

Merely an argument that the status quo will prevail.

Attachments to neutrality &opposition to military expansion would quickly evaporate were Continental cities to become targets for nukes launched by mad mullahs in the middle east or from some former British colony.

Lets say Russia went totally ballistic[no pun intended].

Would Ireland shrugs its shoulders if Vienna or Paris was nuked?

[Grumpy Jack]

Merely an argument that the status quo will prevail.

Attachments to neutrality &opposition to military expansion would quickly evaporate were Continental cities to become targets for nukes launched by mad mullahs in the middle east or from some former British colony.

Lets say Russia went totally ballistic[no pun intended].

Would Ireland shrugs its shoulders if Vienna or Paris was nuked?

Now you are just trolling but I'll bite.

If Europe gets nuked, your whole argument will be irrelevant as there won't be any Europe left to defend! The Yanks will see to that.

And what has Ireland got to offer the Germans or French if they've just been obliterated by the Ruskies or Mad Mullahs?

But as I said, you're trolling and living in fantasy land.

[The Field Marshal]

Now you are just trolling but I'll bite.

If Europe gets nuked, your whole argument will be irrelevant as there won't be any Europe left to defend! The Yanks will see to that.

And what has Ireland got to offer the Germans or French if they've just been obliterated by the Ruskies or Mad Mullahs?

But as I said, you're trolling and living in fantasy land.

Wrong.

The Yanks are militarily sick,of the world ,and of Europe in particular.

[Small example below:

http://www.politics.ie/europe/123729...-britons.html]
For britain read Yanks.


It has nothing got to do with what Ireland has to offer and everything got to do with what Ireland might have to suffer.

Your living in fantasy land if you think such events would not impact here if that is your position.

And stop throwing around the accusation of trolling, it just makes you out to be peevish.

[SilverSpurs]

Well those of us who argued against Lisbon pointed out that the only difference between Permanent structured co-operation and an EU army is optics. The German Foreign minister is confirming that the legal guarantees were a sham designed to mislead the irish electorate.
Sure we dont have to join the PSC group but we must support its actions once is up and running. Yes we can veto its mandate but from that point onwards were are powerless as internal unanimity applies post launch. In other words we can keep the stable door locked but once the door is open the horse can bolt.

[Al.]

If Europe gets nuked, your whole argument will be irrelevant as there won't be any Europe left to defend! The Yanks will see to that

What exactly do you mean by that? [size=1]And who's trolling, in that case?[/size]

[ibis]

Well those of us who argued against Lisbon pointed out that the only difference between Permanent structured co-operation and an EU army is optics. The German Foreign minister is confirming that the legal guarantees were a sham designed to mislead the irish electorate.
Sure we dont have to join the PSC group but we must support its actions once is up and running. Yes we can veto its mandate but from that point onwards were are powerless as internal unanimity applies post launch. In other words we can keep the stable door locked but once the door is open the horse can bolt.

Not only have we not ever been able to stop other European countries from cooperating without us, I'm not sure why you even feel we should be able to do so. The difference between PSC and an EU army is that a PSC group is exactly the same thing as could be achieved without the EU - a joint force under the joint control of the participating states - whereas an EU Army would be under the control of the EU institutions. The first is possible with or without the EU, and is what is being touted here, quite falsely, as an "EU army".

[Grumpy Jack]

What exactly do you mean by that? [size=1]And who's trolling, in that case?[/size]

British soldiers had a saying in World War Two - it went along the lines:

When the Germans open fire, we dive for cover. When we open fire, the Germans dive for cover. When the Yanks open fire, we all dive for cover.

Marshal Mitty made a ridiculous statement. I was responding in kind.

[Grumpy Jack]

Well those of us who argued against Lisbon pointed out that the only difference between Permanent structured co-operation and an EU army is optics. The German Foreign minister is confirming that the legal guarantees were a sham designed to mislead the irish electorate.
Sure we dont have to join the PSC group but we must support its actions once is up and running. Yes we can veto its mandate but from that point onwards were are powerless as internal unanimity applies post launch. In other words we can keep the stable door locked but once the door is open the horse can bolt.

How does the German Foreign Minister confirm the legal guarantees are a sham?

Hew said the "long-term goal" should be an EU Army. That can be his "goal" if he wants but it can't happen under Lisbon.

If EU states want an EU Army they need a new treaty and that needs the unanimous support of all EU states.

Even then it needs a change to the Irish constitution and that needs another referendum here. The Irish people have a veto on any EU Army.

How difficult is that to understand?

[SilverSpurs]

Not only have we not ever been able to stop other European countries from cooperating without us, I'm not sure why you even feel we should be able to do so. The difference between PSC and an EU army is that a PSC group is exactly the same thing as could be achieved without the EU - a joint force under the joint control of the participating states - whereas an EU Army would be under the control of the EU institutions. The first is possible with or without the EU, and is what is being touted here, quite falsely, as an "EU army".

Nice try there ibis but even you cant spin your way out of this one.
Yes PSC could (and would if we said no) proceed outside the EU framework. The important bit is that while it is inside the EU framework we must support its actions even if we dont directly participate, plus it will act on the EU's behalf (thats our behalf). So we cant wash our hands of it.
Your type of hairsplitting might fool a lot of people but not me.