Constitution 29.4.9 as adopted by referendum last year:Originally Posted by kerdasi amaq
The opt-out was in the Amendment to the Constitution.The State shall not adopt a decision taken by the European Council to establish a common defence pursuant to Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union where that common defence would include the State.
Earnest that provision is overruled by the nullifying clause as the eu now requires common defence as it will happen when decided.
No it is not overruled. The people of Ireland accepted the Treaty of Lisbon with this specific clause in the constitutional amendment. Because of this, any decision to adopt common defence cannot apply to Ireland unless our Constitution is amended again. And that can only be done by the people.
You are simply looking at the Treaty. But the Treaty is in force in Ireland only because the people amended the Constitution to allow it to come into force; and the people allowed it to come into force only with this proviso.
Let me put a parallel. I could say: SilverSpurs, I require you to pay me ten euros. And that would be a genuine requirement by me. But since you have not given me the power to require money from you, my requirement is null and void and unenforceable.
Thats lovely.Great.
Irelands Constitution will protect us.?
Will it?
From 1939 to 1942 the USA was officially neutral standing aside from the European conflict. During that period she delivered supplies to Britain ,and Germany, rightly, regarded this as a violation of the international principles of neutrality and targeted her ships.
Once the EU develops an armed wing, the moral pressure to join and the financial pressure to support it will increase.
If an EU army is successfully used in furtherance of an EU policy objective
then it will be said of Ireland and other neutrals that they are accepting EU benefits without taking any risks.
If an EU army enters any serious conflict outside EU borders ,then EU neutral members will not be spared retaliation.
You can have all the constitutions and treaties in the world and they will make absolutely no difference :
Neutral Ireland, in such a scenario as described above will be deemed a co-belligerent.
Ireland as an EU member contributing to the economy of an EU involved in a "war" will rightly not be perceived as neutral.
This scenario was outlined by the anti -Lisbon side.
It is a real and possible scenario yet all the pro- Lisbon side scoffed at it.
I would like to see some real counter argument to my hypothesis and to date have not met one.
Last edited by The Field Marshal; 10th February 2010 at 03:24 PM.
The war in Afghanistan is being fought so that a gas pipeline can be built to carry the immense gas reserves of Turkmenistan to market in India, China, and beyond.
Much of the gas of Turkmenistan is owned or controlled by Yosef A. Maiman, an Israeli veteran of the Mossad.
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You are replying to an entirely different argument, Field Marshal. I was demonstrating that Ireland could not be forced into a common defence by the EU. You are arguing that we may be attacked. Your argument would be useful if you were trying to show that Ireland ought to join a common defence: it does not prove that we will be forced into one by the EU.
You will never demonstrate that Ireland could not be forced into a common defence by the EU.
That is one of the [unstated] points of my post!
When the first Iranian, Libyan or Russian missile lands on Dublin,the people of Ireland will be very quick to force Ireland into a common defence position.
Because of post Lisbon EU membership we are a target for such events and therefor likely to be forced to take actions.
Lisbon facilitates this as it was intended to do.
The increased subjugation of national identities by the EU is simply another lever towards this end.
Force can come under many guises and the Irish were forced to vote for Lisbon because of a deteriorating economy.
The force of moral pressure to sign up to an EU army is another form of force.
This force would be irresistible in the event of serious conflict on the EU,s borders.
So argue all you like about treaties and constitutions they are utterly irrelevant should real forces such as extreme competition for energy resources or nuclear war between competing Islamic ideologies or Israel Iran etc.
The scenarios are endless .
One element is certain.
Irelands increased involvement,enmeshment and even subjugation to the EU ensures beyond doubt that Ireland will be a target should such forces ever escalate to international war.
If a Russian or Iranian missile lands on Dublin we will be glad of a common defence cos those evil Brits, Frogs and Krauts will be forced to ride to the rescue of little ole Ireland.
The scenarios are endless - in your paranoid mind, Field Marshall Mitty.
Get a grip. The Irish people must vote in favour of joining any EU common defence or EU army. If they do, then that's democracy but if they don't we can't be forced in against our will, no matter how much moral pressure is applied.
Hopefully they will ride to the rescue,its not a given.
Democracy does not exist when a gun is to the head of the people.
[Even limited brains such as Grumpyjacks might understand that.]
I suppose were a serious incident to occur in Ireland, like a missile strike or worse a nuclear strike,then Grumpyjack would consult the people in a referendum and abide by the result.
Complete irrelevant tosh.
The realpolitik is that Irelands continued subjugation and integration into the EU superstate makes the possibility of serious external aggression occurring in Ireland greater.
Grumpyjack calls me a Walter Mitty for daring to even suggest this.
He does this because of a naive and shallow view that Ireland is exempt from world emnity and protected by EU treaties.
His misty eyed romantic vision sees the EU as a benign monolith incapable of creating serious external enemies.
Even if it does, it matters not to Grumpyjack,his great EU will shelter Ireland from attack with its mighty all Europe umbrella.
As I said before Grumpyjack thinks like a naive junior ranking civil servant lost in filing cabinet undergrowth in the dept of foreign affairs.
Now and then he is asked for his opinion and trots out the latest unspeak
positive gloss propaganda he has picked up from his station boss.
The status quo is all Grumpyjack will only ever half understand and his ability to discern the march of history is non- existent.
Last edited by The Field Marshal; 10th February 2010 at 07:07 PM.
Surely everyone can relax? In the event of an attack on Irish soil we can comb through our museum-bound defence assets to supplement our standing forces. No need to worry.
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