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Thread: Germany leads the EU

  1. #151
    Al.
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    Another round approaches. Brussels as the Roman Senate, Germany as Caesar? Quite an analogy. From Stratfor:
    (In 2010) you have most of the EU expectantly gazing at Berlin, hoping that it saves Europe from its current crisis. Paris also has a stake in resolving the current crisis, not only because it is a eurozone member, but also because it knows that after Greece and the rest of the so-called “Club Med” countries (Spain, Portugal and Italy), it is France that will be hurt by rising investor concern over eurozone government debt levels. France has already called upon Germany to facilitate the creation of an “economic government” within the eurozone to keep member states in line with commitments set out by EU treaties. Initially, back in October 2008, Germany balked at the idea of expanding EU powers to such an extent because it would have subverted sovereignty too far for its tastes. But considering the situation today, and prospects of having to underwrite yet another EU bailout, it seems that Berlin is changing its mind. That Germany is looking to merely enhance its powers within the EU due to the crisis is already a step in a direction that Cold War Germany never would have contemplated.

    The most potent analogy here may be that of the Roman Republic. The Roman Senate had provisions by which, in times of emergency (such as when Hannibal threatened at the gates), it could bestow dictatorial powers on an individual. The EU may be nearing such a choice, albeit with the EU in the position of the Roman Senate, and Germany playing the role of Caesar. The offer may be too tempting for Germany to ignore. The question is: Will Germany’s past continue to torture Berlin and prevent it from assuming its natural sphere of influence?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Another round approaches. Brussels as the Roman Senate, Germany as Caesar? Quite an analogy. From Stratfor:
    Stratfor (the leader on global intelligence,sic) is a bit shaky on it's ancient history. Hannibal (248-182 BC) and Caesar, Julius (100-44 BC) were never contemporaries.

  3. #153
    Politics.ie Regular fionnmccool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    The moves of the government point towards such an ascendancy once more; and were you aware that one of the purposes that the UN was created to prevent was that of the return of Germany to the point where it could endanger the world again?

    Really? Many countries have endangered the world. Look at the British Empire for example and all the millions of innocent people they killed globally. Maybe it was established more so to protect western powers.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionnmccool View Post
    Maybe it was established more so to protect western powers.
    This. Same reason why Thatcher didn't want Germany reunited or the wall down. It's not "western" even; it's about protecting the US/UK Anglo-Saxon sphere, creating barriers, borders, etc., the usual. Much the same reason was the threat from the German-Slav empire from the Hapsburgs (the longest running empire after the Romans) - it was literally chopped up into pieces and whatever was left was Austria.

    Time of economic chaos allow for reorganisation, this is one of them. If it results in less of the Brussels nonsense the better. A huge threat to Anglo-sphere preeminence is a single europe; that's the way it was for over 2 thousand years, no reason to believe it's not the natural way things will return to.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by clonycavanman View Post
    Stratfor (the leader on global intelligence, sic) is a bit shaky on (it is?) ancient history. Hannibal (248-182 BC) and Caesar, Julius (100-44 BC) were never contemporaries.
    And if you re-read, you'll notice that the text does not claim that they were. They used two examples of the Roman Republic conferring dictatorial powers on an individual. [size=1](BTW, "sic" is used with mis-spellings and/or archaic spellings.)[/size]
    Quote Originally Posted by fionnmaccumhail View Post
    Many countries have endangered the world. Look at the British Empire for example and all the millions of innocent people they killed globally. Maybe it was established more so to protect western powers
    Maybe you should get your head out of the propaganda mill. The British Empire fought a lot of wars, but nobody has ever legitimately accused/convicted it of genocide or the slaughter of millions of innocents; and they certainly have never endangered the world at any time, but much as some propagandists wish to disbelieve, actually improved the lot of their territories (imagine India overrun with the thugis still). The empire that Ireland has just joined itself to is a different story.
    Quote Originally Posted by seamus ceathair View Post
    This. Same reason why Thatcher didn't want Germany reunited or the wall down. It's not "western" even; it's about protecting the US/UK Anglo-Saxon sphere, creating barriers, borders, etc., the usual. Much the same reason was the threat from the German-Slav empire from the Hapsburgs (the longest running empire after the Romans) - it was literally chopped up into pieces and whatever was left was Austria.

    Time of economic chaos allow for reorganisation, this is one of them. If it results in less of the Brussels nonsense the better. A huge threat to Anglo-sphere preeminence is a single europe; that's the way it was for over 2 thousand years, no reason to believe it's not the natural way things will return to
    There is no such thing as a "single Europe". The only form such has ever taken is that of the Holy Roman Empire, and that dream is still very much alive in the minds of the continental elites. (Their use of the term "Anglo-Saxon" is openly racist, too.)

    So now Brussels might end up conferring what amounts to dictatorial powers on Berlin? That's one radical "re-organisation". If being ruled from Westminster was unacceptable to the Irish, why is being ruled from Berlaymont (oddly enough, in the shape of a cross), or the Bundestag, so preferable (and this time preferable to being ruled from Kildare Street)?
    Last edited by Al.; 13th February 2010 at 07:45 PM.
    "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." —Attributed to FDR

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    (BTW, "sic" is used with mis-spellings and/or archaic spellings.)
    "sic" is used wherever one is quoting something which contains an error, to show that the quote itself is correct and it was the "quotee" who made the error.
    To live honestly, to hurt no one, to give every one his due.

  7. #157
    Politics.ie Regular forest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    If being ruled from Westminster was unacceptable to the Irish, why is being ruled from Berlaymont (oddly enough, in the shape of a cross), or the Bundestag, so preferable (and this time preferable to being ruled from Kildare Street)?
    Have you ever been to Berlin
    I have many a time and I nearly cried last time when I had to leave
    I spend 4 hours in London and could not wait to get out

    I would be surprised if all this happens
    Berlin has no interest in running the EU or Eurozone as it will cost too much money
    Yes they might give the ECB/Junker or some one more power over states budget which wouldnt be a bad thing and we may try harder next time to obey the rules
    "We know what to do, we just dont know how to get elected afterwards" Jean-Claude Juncker on how to fix the European economy

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by forest View Post
    Have you ever been to Berlin
    I have many a time and I nearly cried last time when I had to leave
    I spend 4 hours in London and could not wait to get out

    I would be surprised if all this happens
    Berlin has no interest in running the EU or Eurozone as it will cost too much money
    Yes they might give the ECB/Junker or some one more power over states budget which wouldnt be a bad thing and we may try harder next time to obey the rules
    I did not know that there was a correlation between how nice or not nice a tourist finds a capital city and the ambitions of the politicians that work there, to wit the nastier the city, the more powerful and imperialistic the government? No, that correlation doesn't exist; rather, the dirtier the "town", the less powerful the influence of the country on the continental or even world stage.

    As for the "rules', who sets them? Does nobody even question them? The EU has Germany's economy enforced upon it by treaty (the Soziale Marktwirtschaft or "social market economy").

    As for Berlin having no interest in running the EU or eurozone, you should listen to what their politicians say more than looking at the infrastructure of the city. Stratfor has been paying very close attention, and now concludes that the purpose behind the euro was to enable Germany to revive the dream of "Mitteleuropa". (Since Stratfor's OK with quoting whole articles of theirs so long as they're given proper credit, here it is, for posterity.)
    [size=4]Germany: Mitteleuropa Redux[/size]

    [size=1]March 16, 2010 | 0900 GMT
    By Peter Zeihan[/size]

    The global system is undergoing profound change. Three powers — Germany, Iran and China — face challenges forcing them to re-fashion the way they interact with their regions and the world. We will explore each of these three states in detail in our next three geopolitical weeklies, highlighting how Stratfor's assessments of these states are evolving. We will examine Germany first.

    Germany’s Place in Europe

    European history has been the chronicle of other European powers struggling to constrain Germany, particularly since German unification in 1871. The problem has always been geopolitical. Germany lies on the North European Plain, with France to its west and Russia to its east. If both were to attack at the same time, Germany would collapse. German strategy in 1871, 1914 and 1939 called for preemptive strikes on France to prevent a two-front war. (The last two attempts failed disastrously, of course.)

    As much as Germany’s strategy engendered mistrust in Germany’s neighbours, they certainly understood Germany’s needs. And so European strategy after World War II involved reshaping the regional dynamic so that Germany would never face this problem again and so would never need to be a military power again. Germany’s military policy was subordinated to NATO and its economic policy to the European Economic Community (the forerunner of today’s European Union). NATO solved Germany’s short-run problem, while the European Union was seen as solving its long-run problem. For the Europeans — including the Germans — these structures represented the best of both worlds. They harnessed German capital and economic dynamism, submerged Germany into a larger economic entity, gave the Germans what they needed economically so they didn’t have to seek it militarily, and ensured that the Germans had no reason — or ability — to strike out on their own.

    This system worked particularly well after the Cold War ended. Defense threats and their associated costs were reduced. There were lingering sovereignty issues, of course, but these were not critical during the good times: Such problems easily can be dealt with or deferred while the money flows. The example of a European development that represented this money-over-sovereignty paradigm was the European Monetary Union, best represented by the European common currency, the euro.

    Stratfor has always doubted the euro would last. Having the same currency and monetary policy for rich, technocratic, capital-intensive economies like Germany as for poor, agrarian/manufacturing economies like Spain always seemed like asking for problems. Countries like Germany tend to favour high interest rates to attract investment capital. They don’t mind a strong currency, since what they produce is so high up on the value-added scale that they can compete regardless. Countries like Spain, however, need a cheap currency, since there isn’t anything particularly value-added about most of their exports. These states must find a way to be price competitive. Their ability to grow largely depends upon getting access to cheap credit they can direct to places the market might not appreciate.

    Stratfor figured that creating a single currency system would trigger high inflation in the poorer states as they gained access to capital they couldn’t qualify for on their own merits. We figured such access would generate massive debts in those states. And we figured such debts would contribute to discontent across the currency zone as the European Central Bank (ECB) catered to the needs of some economies at the expense of others.

    All this and more has happened. We saw the 2008-2009 financial crisis in Central Europe as particularly instructive. Despite their shared EU membership, the Western European members were quite reluctant to bail out their eastern partners. We became even more convinced that such inconsistencies would eventually doom the currency union, and that the euro’s eventual dissolution would take the European Union with it. Now, we’re not so sure.

    [size=3]What if, instead of the euro being designed to further contain the Germans, the Germans crafted the euro to re-wire the European Union for their own purposes?[/size]

    Germany and the Current Crisis

    The crux of the current crisis in Europe is that most EU states, but in particular the Club Med states of Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy (in that order), have done such a poor job of keeping their budgets under control that they are flirting with debt defaults. All have grown fat and lazy off the cheap credit the euro brought them. Instead of using that credit to trigger broad sustainable economic growth, they lived off the difference between the credit they received due to the euro and the credit they qualified for on their own merits. Social programs funded by debt exploded; after all, the cost of that debt was low as the Club Med countries coasted on the bond prices of Germany. At present, interest rates set by the ECB stand at 1 percent; in the past, on its own merits, Greece’s often rose to double digits. The resulting government debt load in Greece — which now exceeds annual Greek gross domestic product — will probably result in either a default (triggered by efforts to maintain such programmes) or a social revolution (triggered by an effort to cut such programmes). It is entirely possible that both will happen.

    What made us look at this in a new light was an interview with German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble on March 13 in which he essentially said that if Greece, or any other eurozone member, could not right their finances, they should be ejected from the eurozone. This really got our attention. It is not so much that there is no legal way to do this. (And there is not; Greece is a full EU member, and eurozone membership issues are clearly a category where any member can veto any major decision.) Instead, what jumped out at us is that someone of Schäuble’s gravitas doesn’t go about casually making threats, and this is not the sort of statement made by a country that is constrained, harnessed, submerged or placated. It is not even the sort of statement made by just any EU member, but rather by the decisive member. Germany now appears prepared not just to contemplate, but to publicly contemplate, the re-engineering of Europe for its own interests. It may not do it, or it may not do it now, but it has now been said, and that will change Germany’s relationship to Europe.

    A closer look at the euro’s effects indicates why Schäuble felt confident enough to take such a bold stance.

    Part of being within the same currency zone means being locked into the same market. One must compete with everyone else in that market for pretty much everything. This allows Slovaks to qualify for mortgage loans at the same interest rates the Dutch enjoy, but it also means that efficient Irish workers are actively competing with inefficient Spanish workers — or more to the issue of the day, that ultra-efficient German workers are competing directly with ultra-inefficient Greek workers.

    The chart here measures the relative cost of labour per unit of economic output produced. It all too vividly highlights what happens when workers compete. (We have included U.S. data as a benchmark.) Those who are not as productive try to paper over the problem with credit. Since the euro was introduced, all of Germany’s euro partners have found themselves becoming less and less efficient relative to Germany. Germans are at the bottom of the graph, indicating that their labour costs have barely budged. Club Med dominates the top rankings, as access to cheaper credit has made them even less, not more, efficient than they already were. Back-of-the-envelope math indicates that in the past decade, Germany has gained roughly a 25 per cent cost advantage over Club Med.

    The implications of this are difficult to overstate. If the euro is essentially gutting the European — and again to a greater extent the Club Med — economic base, then Germany is achieving by stealth what it failed to achieve in the past thousand years of intra-European struggles. In essence, European states are borrowing money (mostly from Germany) in order to purchase imported goods (mostly from Germany) because their own workers cannot compete on price (mostly because of Germany). This is not limited to states actually within the eurozone, but also includes any state affiliated with the zone; the relative labour costs for most of the Central European states that have not even joined the euro yet have risen by even more during this same period.

    It is not so much that Stratfor now sees the euro as workable in the long run — we still don’t — it’s more that our assessment of the euro is shifting from the belief that it was a strait-jacket for Germany to the belief that it is Germany’s springboard. In the first assessment, the euro would have broken as Germany was denied the right to chart its own destiny. Now, it might well break because Germany is becoming a bit too successful at charting its own destiny. And as it dawns on one European country after another that there was more to the euro than cheap credit, the ties that bind are almost certainly going to weaken.

    [size=3]The paradigm that created the European Union — that Germany would be harnessed and contained — is shifting. Germany now has not only found its voice, it is beginning to express, and hold to, its own national interest. A political consensus has emerged in Germany against bailing out Greece. Moreover, a political consensus has emerged in Germany that the rules of the eurozone are Germany’s to re-fashion. As the European Union’s anchor member, Germany has a very good point. But this was not the “union” the rest of Europe signed up for — it is the Mitteleuropa that the rest of Europe will remember well.[/size]
    Last edited by Al.; 17th March 2010 at 03:18 AM.
    "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." —Attributed to FDR

  9. #159
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    Mitteleuropa abu!

    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    As for the "rules', who sets them? Does nobody even question them? The EU has Germany's economy enforced upon it by treaty (the Soziale Marktwirtschaft or "social market economy").

    As for Berlin having no interest in running the EU or eurozone, you should listen to what their politicians say more than looking at the infrastructure of the city.[...] the purpose behind the euro was to enable Germany to revive the dream of "Mitteleuropa".
    Seems you're listening more to what Stratfor says than what German politicians say. But then again, Stratfor is quite an important sounding source, isn't it.

    Anyway, let's take a closer look at a few of their assertions!

    "European history has been the chronicle of other European powers struggling to constrain Germany."
    I mean come on! Please!!!! What a demonstrable pile of baloney. There are plenty of powers in Europe which have tried to impose themselves on others over the centuries. Singling out Germany is so far wide of the mark it can only be a sign of prejudice. For this biased potted history of Europe alone, Stratfor is simply not worth taking seriously.

    "Stratfor has always doubted the euro would last."
    Yeah, sure. Talk is cheap. However, getting the Euro up and running is a massive undertaking. It's taken a long time to set up. There are a lot of intelligent people behind its success. And a lot of brave, forward-looking politicians who see the Euro for what it is - an initiative of historic proportions. I suppose, there's nothing to hurling on the ditch though, is there? So what's Stratfor's alternative vision for all the countries in Europe (other than Germany) it cares so deeply for? I bet it doesn't have one. Probably some Atlanticist laissez faire thingie.

    "Since the euro was introduced, all of Germany’s euro partners have found themselves becoming less and less efficient relative to Germany."
    Well, big swing of the mickey. Most EU countries have always been less efficient than Germany. So what? All that means is they have less money than Germans. It doesn't matter one whit whether that money is the Euro, the Pound, or the Lira. Your purchasing power will follow your inefficiency down anyway.

    Finally, if you insist on not trusting the Germans, neither should you trust the Brits. Nor the French. Nor the Spanish. Nor the Dutch. Nor the Swedes. Nor the Danes. Nor the Americans. And definitely not Stratfor!

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solyad View Post
    Im on christmas holidays at them moment in Munich with my girlfriends family. Im very fond of germany and have spent a lot of time here.

    Germans are wonderful, warm and welcoming people. They also have quite a soft spot for Ireland and the irish.


    Some of the nonsense on this thread is a bit sad to be honest. There seems to be an implication the the germans are hell bent on domination as if its in their nature. (some of it borders on racist and using the highly loaded phrase "fourth reich" reflects badly on the user, drawing cheap parallels to the war)

    Im glad my girlfriends generation is finally able to feel what happened in the war was nothing to do with them. Why should they feel shame for something that happened long before they were born.

    As for the OP that germany leads the EU, if they did and ran it as well as their own country, were in good hands. Its not true of course, its not how the EU functions. They do have the largest voting bloc of course being the largest country and theres no doubt they have strong inflence, as do France, UK etc.

    But the main assertion of the OP is false and has yet to be proven on this thread.
    I'm bumping this post.

    Nice positive sentiment. You have to take most countries at face value to some degree, while keeping a sharp eye out for your own interest. And in the meantime, you can always enjoy their beer, their baguettes, their beef and their cafe con leche.

    Happy St Patricks Day to you Solyad, if you're still dipping into P.ie.

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