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  1. #21
    eurosceptic eurosceptic is offline
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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    McD i think you have an extemely naive assessment of the european world view. Whatever wrongs were committed by america and russia and so on fade into insignificance when you look at the european empires of previous centuries. You need to know that the european empires only came to an end due to post WW2 military exhaustion, cold war committments and diplomatic pressure from the USA (american post WW2 aid was on the condition that the european empires had to go). Its true the EU exercises soft power, but only because it does not yet have hard power. When it does i will be diving for cover.
    There is no reason to believe that when this hard power is in hand the former colonials wont revert to their old habits.
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  2. #22
    Podolski Podolski is offline
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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    On whose side would this European Army fight? Europe's or America's?
    Given that the EU is currently a slavish ally of the USA the truth is that it would be European troops fighting as the US proxy against the Russians while the US military would begin another venture elsewhere.

    What you are offering is a large fire as an alternative to NATO's sizzling frying-pan.
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  3. #23
    CelticAtheist CelticAtheist is offline
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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podolski
    On whose side would this European Army fight? Europe's or America's?
    Given that the EU is currently a slavish ally of the USA the truth is that it would be European troops fighting as the US proxy against the Russians while the US military would begin another venture elsewhere.

    What you are offering is a large fire as an alternative to NATO's sizzling frying-pan.
    Both the US and Russia fear one thing the most: An independently minded, militarily united EU.

    So the US has Europe by one of our balls with their money (their ultimate weapon), and Russia holds the other with their resources flowing to Germany.
    IMO, the US is the lesser of the two evils, but that doesn't mean we should bend over backwards to appease them.
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  4. #24
    McDave McDave is offline

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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Liberty Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    ...peace-loving Europeans who want to take responsibility for their and their neighbours' security and prosperity need to take decisive action to secure their interests in the coming years.
    Don't you worry that such a force might eventually be used in ways of which you would disapprove?
    Ah, the old "proving-a-negative" conundrum. I suppose anything is possible. But realistically, an EU army constrained by the democratic forces within the EU and answering its politically expressed needs is far less likely to do the stuff some other armies do, like invade Iraq, Greneda, Southern Ossetia or the Falklands.
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  5. #25
    McDave McDave is offline

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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    Quote Originally Posted by eurosceptic
    McD i think you have an extemely naive assessment of the european world view. Whatever wrongs were committed by america and russia and so on fade into insignificance when you look at the european empires of previous centuries. You need to know that the european empires only came to an end due to post WW2 military exhaustion, cold war committments and diplomatic pressure from the USA (american post WW2 aid was on the condition that the european empires had to go). Its true the EU exercises soft power, but only because it does not yet have hard power. When it does i will be diving for cover.
    There is no reason to believe that when this hard power is in hand the former colonials wont revert to their old habits.
    Looking at your points another way, one could equally say that the US is just the latest in a long line of colonising imperialist powers. Morally relativising the behaviour of today's versus yesteryear's imperialists is a tricky proposition. Today's European powers have at least learned from previous mistakes, unlike those power-hungry, war-mongering neocon fossils.

    The hard power a core-EU army would be severely limited by the compromises the political structures of the EU and it's security policy imposes. I'd go so far as to say a Euro army's function would be as a deterrent to setting foot on EU soil, and not for aggressive expansionist or resource-grabbing goals.
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  6. #26
    eurosceptic eurosceptic is offline
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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    I'm not naive about the errors and motives of america or russia either. They are shamelessly serving their own interests. I am unconvinced that todays european leopards have really changed their spots. I very much consider the EU mission in Chad as self serving. The presence of uranium deposits is no coincidence. Supporting kosovo means a weak serbia which suits the EU as croatia can then be its agent in the former yugoslavia. The current lack of hard power means the former colonials have to a bit cleverer.
    I dont buy the notion that because of "multilateralism" in the EU it wont go too far wrong. Remember the USA is made up of 50 autonomous democracies with their own armies (state troopers) and police etc. Any action by the USA is debated by representatives from all 50 states encompassing many political stripes and flavours. Any EU action in theory requires unanimity but as we have seen since the no vote, a veto by a small country wont be tolerated.
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  7. #27
    McDave McDave is offline

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    Re: McCain-Palin go loopy on Russia - time now for an EU army?

    Quote Originally Posted by eurosceptic
    I'm not naive about the errors and motives of america or russia either. They are shamelessly serving their own interests. I am unconvinced that todays european leopards have really changed their spots. I very much consider the EU mission in Chad as self serving. The presence of uranium deposits is no coincidence. Supporting kosovo means a weak serbia which suits the EU as croatia can then be its agent in the former yugoslavia. The current lack of hard power means the former colonials have to a bit cleverer.
    I dont buy the notion that because of "multilateralism" in the EU it wont go too far wrong. Remember the USA is made up of 50 autonomous democracies with their own armies (state troopers) and police etc. Any action by the USA is debated by representatives from all 50 states encompassing many political stripes and flavours. Any EU action in theory requires unanimity but as we have seen since the no vote, a veto by a small country wont be tolerated.
    No need to worry about your theoretical fear of being ignored in a Euro-army. We simply won't be in it!
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  8. #28
    Al. Al. is offline

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    Re: EU Army as World Police? What then?

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach
    I agree with McCain-Palin on Russia. Having said that, I have no problem with a Euro-army provided it cannot be used against the Irish people and provided Ireland is not forced into foreign wars
    Don't count on that. Especially if it's Germany in control of said army.

    And besides, why does Ireland remain so dovish? It's time for the Republic to stand on its own two feet and not rely on others to protect it.
    But there is an awful appeasing tendency among the EU political Establishment which causes me not to fully agree with the notion that the EU should aim to rival the US in terms of global power. I prefer the idea of a Euroarmy that Ireland is not involved in, acting as a deterrent to Russian imperialism, and to provide peacekeeping-forces on UN missions. But I disagree with those who call for the US to stay out of European affairs. Ireland is dependent on US multinational investment. US investment in Ireland is higher than in China and India combined, and 44% of North American investment in Europe is in Ireland. The relationship with the US is more important then than that with Europe. I believe Ireland should aim to preserve both EU membership and friendship with the US, but that the latter is a bit more important
    The resurgence of Russian imperialism was given its legs by the USA being seduced by the EU into breaking its post-Cold War promise to Russia, to wit that NATO would never interfere with any post-Soviet Bloc country. Pile the US withdrawal from the ABM treaty on top of that, and Putiput had all the justification he could wish for, although if he restricted it to this one matter, he might have the moral high ground (but he has not, what with his particularly anti-US stance, even more so than anti-EU).

    You are correct in attributing the Celtic Tiger(s) to the US investment. Ireland, though, should have used the opportunity to build itself up, rather than engage in a consumerist orgy. Now Ireland's left itself too weak to be a "big" EU country; it would have been very good for Europe if the opportunity was taken to gather strength enough to rival self-serving Germany for the de-facto leadership of the EU, never mind work towards disestablishing its totalitarian institutions.
    I agree that US foreign policy in Israel-Palestine is unjust, but how would a Euroarmy change things?
    What do you mean by "unjust"? Failing to uphold their promises to Israel? Most certainly unjust. Toeing the hypocritical EU pro-Palestinian (hence pro-terror) line? Utterly unjust. Throwing bunches of money at UNIFIL, who actually helped Hizbullah in Lebanon re-arm when their job was to prevent same?

    I hope everyone on this forum is aware that the "two-state solution" has been rejected at every turn by the Palestinians. It was a corpse in 1947, when it was rejected by the Arab population. The same corpse was offered to Arafat prior to his Second Intifada, with the same rejection. You cannot resurrect a corpse. The Palestinians' unilateral goal, no matter if it's Hamas (Hebrew for "Violence") or Fatah (Arabic for "Conquest"), is the utter destruction of the State of Israel, either driving out or slaughtering the Jews there, and especially reclaiming Jerusalem (which they call "Al-Quds").

    Of course, if you're aware of which way Europe is tending, you might be able to guess what a Euro-Army would be doing if they were ever deployed to Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by eurosceptic
    I am unconvinced that todays european leopards have really changed their spots
    That they have not. Remember Bonn (the reunified Germany's capital prior to the move back to Berlin) recognising the independence of Croatia and Slovenia back in 1991, then bullying the rest of Europe, and eventually the USA, into acceding to their point of view? They even had the nerve to threaten a rift with all their allies over the issue (the nerve of them; who did they think they were?); then seven years later, they suckered NATO into a war in that region. After destabilising it to begin with. See any parallels between what both Kaiser William and Pretender Adolf did to the Balkans during their respective reigns?
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Today's European powers have at least learned from previous mistakes
    Have they?

    Which country is in second place behind the USA in terms of worldwide military deployments? (Bonus points if you can come up with a legitimate demonstration of how this is "learning from past mistakes" versus repeating them.)
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