Register to Comment
Page 3 of 68 FirstFirst 12345 13 53 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 675
  1. #21
    constitutionus constitutionus is offline

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    18,658

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by goosebump
    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard
    Collins, Hennessy and Whelan all the IT political hacks have all posted vitriolic articles against the decision of the referendum. Quite incredible that political correspondents, whom one would suppose would be wedded to the political process, are so gung ho to subvert that same process. Madam must really be putting the squeeze on these people. She has the hump after the unwashed dared to gainsay her demands for a YES.
    At least the IT is Irish, unlike the various sh1trags that have championed the No side.
    which is just an indictment of the state of the media in this country.

    its not for nothing that those selfsame "foreign" papers covered the most explosives stories in terms of corruption ,be it the gardai in donegal or politicians pocketing cash, that the country has ever seen - while the IT and co ran a mile.

    remember it was phoenix magazine that named haughey. the "paper of record" kept stum because theyre a bunch of self serving establishment cowards.

    journalists are MEANT to seek the truth, the facts of a situation, this lot couldnt be arsed if it affects their career prospects or sources. theres a word for this. its called being "embedded"

    the very FIRST thing people should do when faced with an issue is listen to what people who ARENT affected by it think as the rest of the feckers a biased in one way or another. its as valid an activity in relation to lisbon here as it is to the coverage of the war in iraq was in america.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #22
    Ramon21 Ramon21 is offline
    Ramon21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    878

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Great finnaly someone with guts in ireland.
    I salute you collins.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #23
    McDave McDave is offline

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    11,556

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger
    Words are actually failing me. A clear no vote, diminishing chance of a successful re-run, so Collins goes down the anti-democratic stitch-up route
    I read the article.

    My view is that we should have attempted ratification by the Oireachtas in the first place. There would have been nothing illegal or antidemocratic about that, until proven otherwise in a constitutional challenge in the courts. It would have been a very risky strategy, but our governments have been so gutless on anything controversial down through the years that they instinctively outsource anything that might undermine their "popularity". So it was never going to happen this way if they could help it.

    Unfortunately for the govt, they adopted a certain course of action and botched it. Now the No genie is out of the bottle, so the optics of going back to the Oireachtas will look really bad. If Lisbon is successfully ratified this way there could be serious outcomes for some at the next general election. Personally I'm happy if they pay that price. The Irish body politic has become rotten and complacent. The Lisbon No is, IMO, a symptom of this situation Ireland is generally in.

    In the bigger picture, we've got ourselves into a fine mess. We're in a situation where our future in the EU is compromised and the electorate is in such a funk that they don't much care at present about the real-world consequences of the No. It's my opinion that a lot of the No voters support overall progress the EU (vehement denials from some of vehement No posters on P.ie haven't yet convinced me to the contrary), but still don't see that Lisbon No is compromising our place in it.

    I don't dislike the man, but I wouldn't have Cowen's job for the world. Lisbon, economy, tribunals, corruption. All the bad karma for years of FF complacency is now dumped at his door. Payback time? Certainly, no happy end!
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #24
    DaveM DaveM is offline
    DaveM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    9,449

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach
    This sort of attitude - not taking no for an answer- is what makes people resent the EU in the first place and I strongly disagree with him. But I'm intrigued he brings up an optout from the Charter of Fundamental Rights - the enshrining into EU law of which is probably the worst part of the existing treaty to me personally. So while I strongly oppose the shenanigans of the yes camp trying to defy the Irish people's decision of Lisbon, I hope that SC's view that the Charter can only be ratified by referenda here is correct, as that would mean the worst part of the treaty is definitely dead, And as for a lot of no voters not understanding Lisbon, the same could be said about yes voters who cited supposed benefits of EU membership as reasons for voting yes, and if we go down the road of setting aside referenda results on that basis, then pretty soon the elites will be advocting similar grounds for setting aside election results too. The people are sovereign in our constitution and the elites must abide by our no vote
    FT, any resentment towards Brussels that exists amongst the Irish electorate was stirred up disproportionately by the No camp which based its campaign around baseless arguments (or lies to give them their more accurate name) surrounding our commissioner, the possibility of renegotiation, sovreignty, tax autonomy, conscription, abortion, etc. Every one them false. All this bankrolled by a lobby group which was spectacularly well funded by mystery doners.

    As a result our influence in the EU has been dealt a severe blow and we need to find a way to repair the situation. If we don't we will undoubtedly be marginalised. Personally I think ratification of complex matters like this should be a matter for the Oireachtas. If you don't like the way they do it then vote them out next time round. Refernda on such issues allows them to be hijacked by assorted cranks as was the case with Lisbon.

    Although it is highly unlikely to transpire, I for one would be happy if the path advocated by Stephen Collins were followed. If people don't like this then vote the government out next time round.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #25
    kerrynorth kerrynorth is offline

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    12,071

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by NotDevsSon
    1. There was no vote on the Lisbon Treaty (or any other treaty). There was a vote to amend the constitution to facilitate ratification and to add in extra lines into the constitution.
    I don't know you could make that distinction. The wording is explicit in the referendum bill, 'that the State may ratify the Lisbon Treaty as signed on December 2006' etc. That bill was rejected in a referendum, therefore the Lisbon Treaty has been rejected. And there is no means by which the government can come along and ratify by legislation what has already been rejected by referendum - absolutely none. The Irish Times trolls are talking through their collective holes.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #26
    Twin Towers Twin Towers is offline
    Twin Towers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    10,952

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    I don't dislike the man, but I wouldn't have Cowen's job for the world. Lisbon, economy, tribunals, corruption. All the bad karma for years of FF complacency is now dumped at his door. Payback time?
    Not to mention the heap of ridiculous reasons that he must pretend to himself and all around must pretend to him as to why people voted No in the first place. He's surprise guest at the mad hatters tea party.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #27
    droghedasouth droghedasouth is offline
    droghedasouth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,653

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard
    Quote Originally Posted by goosebump
    At least the IT is Irish, unlike the various sh1trags that have championed the No side.
    Well you can be Irish and wrong.
    Too true.
    That is why a second referendum is needed.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #28
    FutureTaoiseach FutureTaoiseach is offline
    FutureTaoiseach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    39,775

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM
    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach
    This sort of attitude - not taking no for an answer- is what makes people resent the EU in the first place and I strongly disagree with him. But I'm intrigued he brings up an optout from the Charter of Fundamental Rights - the enshrining into EU law of which is probably the worst part of the existing treaty to me personally. So while I strongly oppose the shenanigans of the yes camp trying to defy the Irish people's decision of Lisbon, I hope that SC's view that the Charter can only be ratified by referenda here is correct, as that would mean the worst part of the treaty is definitely dead, And as for a lot of no voters not understanding Lisbon, the same could be said about yes voters who cited supposed benefits of EU membership as reasons for voting yes, and if we go down the road of setting aside referenda results on that basis, then pretty soon the elites will be advocting similar grounds for setting aside election results too. The people are sovereign in our constitution and the elites must abide by our no vote
    FT, any resentment towards Brussels that exists amongst the Irish electorate was stirred up disproportionately by the No camp which based its campaign around baseless arguments (or lies to give them their more accurate name) surrounding our commissioner, the possibility of renegotiation, sovreignty, tax autonomy, conscription, abortion, etc. Every one them false. All this bankrolled by a lobby group which was spectacularly well funded by mystery doners.

    As a result our influence in the EU has been dealt a severe blow and we need to find a way to repair the situation. If we don't we will undoubtedly be marginalised. Personally I think ratification of complex matters like this should be a matter for the Oireachtas. If you don't like the way they do it then vote them out next time round. Refernda on such issues allows them to be hijacked by assorted cranks as was the case with Lisbon.

    Although it is highly unlikely to transpire, I for one would be happy if the path advocated by Stephen Collins were followed. If people don't like this then vote the government out next time round.
    The problem of course is that when people went to the polls in 2007 it was on the reasonable assumption that the Irish people would continue to have the final say on matters of transfer of sovereignty to Brussels via referenda. Likewise, even if we did throw out such offending politicians, it would be too late as the treaty would have been ratified long before then, so the people would still have been disenfranchised on the treaty.

    As for your claims about 'lies', one lie from the yes side - remember a certain Irish politician telling Newstalk there would not be a second referendum if we voted no? Yet the political elitists are flying kites to the press about doing just that. And the people didn't care about the Libertas donations as the result showed, especially coming from Fianna Fail that SIPO say only divulged 18% of its election spending for the General Election last year and hardly any of its donations received. Then there's the Blueshirts who apparently have had no disclosable donations since 2001(!). So less of that throwing stones at Libertas from glasshouses thanks.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #29
    wysiwyg wysiwyg is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,619

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by droghedasouth
    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard
    Quote Originally Posted by goosebump
    At least the IT is Irish, unlike the various sh1trags that have championed the No side.
    Well you can be Irish and wrong.
    Too true.
    That is why a second referendum is needed.

    Absolutely.. Bring it on.. hy, why not go the whole hog, and run it on the same day as the locals.. let's see the balls on FG asking their councillors to propose a Yes vote while canvassing for their council seats as well...

    The last thing FG need is a second referendum... if you can't see that.. then it's no wonder FG are stuck in perpetual Opposition..

    Have you ever heard the expression, fool me once, shame on you.. fool me twice, shame on me..

    We were sold a pup on Nice.. especially in relation to immigration.. the feeling out their for a second Lisbon is profoundly negative... and that's before a slash and burn Budget...

    So.. like I said.. bring it on
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  10. #30
    returning officer returning officer is offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,047

    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    There is only one party which has a td in each no constituency. Do you really think its backbenchers will stick their two fingers up to their voters at time of challenging economic news in order to keep european governments happy? Ta Lisbon maribh.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Page 3 of 68 FirstFirst 12345 13 53 ... LastLast
Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment