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  1. #11
    goosebump goosebump is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny's Soldier
    Collins' column might make sense if it were a "strictly confidential" briefing to Government ministers. Instead its a blatant in your face commentary favouring subversion of the will of the people.

    Any attempts to ratify the treaty other than by consent of the people will inexorably lead to civil unrest and even civil war.
    Hardly, but the Oireachtas won't be able to ratify and won't attempt to. It could have before the Referendum, but not now.

    The only way out of this is for Cowen to go to the Council and say we won't be ratifying this Treaty. The Council can then tell him what this means and he can come back to us with the options.

    If they say that you must ratify this or we will ratify qnother Treaty without you, we need to have another referendum, and accept the outcome of that Referendum. If they say right, no one is going to ratify Lisbon and we go ahead with Nice, then we don't need to have another Referendum.

    It isn't actually that complicated.
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  2. #12
    TradCat TradCat is offline
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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    I wouldn't even bother getting upset about it. There is no way in hell the Supreme Court would allow it. But Collins is a piece of work without a doubt. If he was even approaching a coherent position on the subject he would propose that the government go to the country and seek a mandate for Dail approval of Lisbon. Fianna Fail and Fine Gael could form a short term coalition just to ratify. If they got a majority.

    That would at least give the thing a democratic fig-leaf. But Cowen and Kenny are not going to engage in political bungee jumping in the hope that everything works out for them. The only real issue remaining around Lisbon is the unwillingness of some on the Yes side to accept the decision of the people. That they are entertaining preposterous ideas means they are still in denial.

    By the way the idea that the winning side told lies so the result is less valid is unsustainable. It has no legal or political basis. It is just the opinion of a bad loser.
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  3. #13
    constitutionus constitutionus is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    you know the more i here from these guys the more im glad i dont have any daughters.

    clearly the lot of em have a problem understanding the word "NO".

    but hey, theyre turning out to be the best weapon the no side have. all they have to do is sit back and let the anti democratic contemptable drivel flow.
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  4. #14
    Clanrickard Clanrickard is offline
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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Collins, Hennessy and Whelan all the IT political hacks have all posted vitriolic articles against the decision of the referendum. Quite incredible that political correspondents, whom one would suppose would be wedded to the political process, are so gung ho to subvert that same process. Madam must really be putting the squeeze on these people. She has the hump after the unwashed dared to gainsay her demands for a YES.
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  5. #15
    kerrynorth kerrynorth is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    The Times have been banging this drum for the last couple of Saturdays. The RedC poll must have really upset them no end. Collins in reality is no more than the mouthpiece of Madam on this issue and he is very much speaking for her as well.
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  6. #16
    goosebump goosebump is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard
    Collins, Hennessy and Whelan all the IT political hacks have all posted vitriolic articles against the decision of the referendum. Quite incredible that political correspondents, whom one would suppose would be wedded to the political process, are so gung ho to subvert that same process. Madam must really be putting the squeeze on these people. She has the hump after the unwashed dared to gainsay her demands for a YES.
    At least the IT is Irish, unlike the various sh1trags that have championed the No side.
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  7. #17
    Grumpy Fogey Grumpy Fogey is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger
    Words are actually failing me. A clear no vote, diminishing chance of a successful re-run, so Collins goes down the anti-democratic stitch-up route:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 80440.html
    Collins has no loyalty to this country and no commitment to democracy. He personifies the thinking at the heart of the "European project".

    But his scheme can't work. Before the government went down the referendum road it the took the advice of the attorney general and he told them that the changes proposed by the Lisbon Treaty necessitated a constitutional amendment. That advice has not been published, and it is safe to assume that it was emphatic and fully explained the scale of the changes contained in the treaty. Had his advice been along the lines of "well, there isn't very much new in Lisbon really and a ratification by the Oireachtas would probably do fine, but you might prefer to go the referendum route just to put the thing beyond legal challenge", then we would have heard all about it during the referendum campaign. The reason we heard nothing about his advice is because it would have helped the "No" side.

    Clearly there are some things in Lisbon that could be implemented by government decision and don't even require Oireachtas approval - setting up an EU diplomatic service for example. Other things could be done by the Oireachtas - e.g. changing voting strengths, European parliament representation, the number of Commissioners. Others fall into a grey area and might or might not require constitutional amendment - the abolition of the veto in a wide range of new areas and the charter of fundamental rights are both examples. But there are other parts of the Lisbon Treaty that fundamentally change the nature of the EU - namely the abolition of the "three pillars" structure and the consequent transfer of security/foreign policy and justice/homeaffairs away from the sphere of intergovernmental cooperation, inserting them instead into the existing supranational structure with a consequent extension of the powers of the Commission and the EU Court of Justice into these new areas. It is absolutely inconceivable that such changes could be implemented without a referendum, yet they lie at the heart of the Lisbon Treaty. In Denmark, where government is a lot more open than it is in this country, we know that a referendum on Lisbon was avoided only by Danish opt-outs in these areas. (The Irish opt-out on justice/home affairs is irrelevant in this context because the proposed constitutional amendment would have given the government power to opt-in at a later date without further reference to the people.)

    Appalling as all these desperate schemes by the supporters of EU integration to subvert our democracy are, they do at least serve the useful and salutory purpose of educating the public in relation to the undemocratic nature of the European project and of its local advocates. If they try to push Lisbon through without a referendum, there will be another Crotty case, and the European Unionists will be dragged kicking and screaming to the ballot box where the sovereign people will deliver an appropriate punishment.
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  8. #18
    Clanrickard Clanrickard is offline
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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by goosebump
    At least the IT is Irish, unlike the various sh1trags that have championed the No side.
    Well you can be Irish and wrong.
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  9. #19
    Clanrickard Clanrickard is offline
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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Fogey
    If they try to push Lisbon through without a referendum, there will be another Crotty case, and the European Unionists will be dragged kicking and screaming to the ballot box where the sovereign people will deliver an appropriate punishment.
    *claps*
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  10. #20
    kerrynorth kerrynorth is offline

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    Re: Stephen Collins: 'Ratify Lisbon anyway'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Fogey
    Others fall into a grey area and might or might not require constitutional amendment - the abolition of the veto in a wide range of new areas and the charter of fundamental rights are both examples. But there are other parts of the Lisbon Treaty that fundamentally change the nature of the EU - namely the abolition of the "three pillars" structure and the consequent transfer of security/foreign policy and justice/homeaffairs away from the sphere of intergovernmental cooperation, inserting them instead into the existing supranational structure with a consequent extension of the powers of the Commission and the EU Court of Justice into these new areas. It is absolutely inconceivable that such changes could be implemented without a referendum, yet they lie at the heart of the Lisbon Treaty.
    It's as plain as day that giving up the veto on new areas and the COFR require a referendum as they entail the giving up of sovereignty which the Constitution states explicitly is a matter for the people in a referendum and as confirmed by the Supreme Court in the Crotty judgement.
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