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  1. #21
    wilting wilting is offline

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    Oh jeez, why do things have to be all one way or another?

    Could it be that nationalism and supranationalism can both sometimes be peaceful, or sometimes lead to conflict? That any group can have hostility with other groups, or cooperate successfully with them? Hmm?

    Could it be that these things depend on specific circumstances, rather than some fundamental rule of the universe that determines one or the other is peaceful or hostile?

    Could it be that European integration has been a major contributor to stability in Europe, AS WELL as American military might? Why are the two mutually exclusive? I think you will find they were complimentary.

    Could it be that there are good things and bad things about European integration? That it results in neither a utopia nor a dystopia? Hmm?
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  2. #22
    statsman statsman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilting View Post
    Oh jeez, why do things have to be all one way or another?

    Could it be that nationalism and supranationalism can both sometimes be peaceful, or sometimes lead to conflict? That any group can have hostility with other groups, or cooperate successfully with them? Hmm?

    Could it be that these things depend on specific circumstances, rather than some fundamental rule of the universe that determines one or the other is peaceful or hostile?

    Could it be that European integration has been a major contributor to stability in Europe, AS WELL as American military might? Why are the two mutually exclusive? I think you will find they were complimentary.

    Could it be that there are good things and bad things about European integration? That it results in neither a utopia nor a dystopia? Hmm?
    You're being far too sensible; maybe you're on the wrong website.
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  3. #23
    Thac0man Thac0man is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    So is the historian right,
    No, I do not think so. Only from a cloistered tower in academia land could he interpret the EU as comparible to the Napoleonic, Nazi or even Roman Empires.

    To quote his first line, the part where he tees off into the scrub
    "If we look further back in history, once again we see that it was not “nationalism” but imperialism and the desire to unify Europe that led to wars.".
    So he was asleep for the whole Nazi thingy? Really, this is some weird stuff and one has to assume that while in his tower, he has been sleeping for a few centuries.

    His amazing idea:
    What we need is a Europe without a central regime: a Europe comprised of nation states, which are not afraid of national differences, and willing to cooperate with each other. The authority of nation states over their own borders should be restored, so that they themselves can decide who they want to allow in their territory. …
    ....is well known and often cited as the ideal or goal of the EU. If the EU members again assert their belief that diversity is the strenght of Europe, will Baudet think he is getting credit for the idea? It is that odd to say what he says now. Maybe he will have have a good idea about harnessing the power of steam, and share it with us too while he is at it.
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  4. #24
    MacBeth MacBeth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casablanca View Post
    Surely the single greatest success of the EU is that it has helped prevent war in Europe for 70 years in contrast with the previous 500 odd years when Europe was almost constantly at war?
    How many wars took place between 1815 and 1870? There was no precious EU back then but fully sovereign nation states. And it the Germans and French always get what they want at the expense of the rest of europe (which the EU facilities) then they don't have much reason to want war.

    Anyway of course there were no wars in post 1945 europe. Germany had it's military capabilities permanently destroyed was occupied by 4 different armies and was reduced in size considerably. Also the capitalist nations of western europe became united against Soviet communism and this threat increased their co-operation. The idea that Italy would have attacked Belgium if it wasn't for the EU is ridiculous.
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  5. #25
    Polaris555 Polaris555 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Of course, the fact that Baudet is an actual historian will be glossed over by the lovers of empire.

    NRC Handelsblad – PressEurop translationSo is the historian right, or the corrupt politician that repeats the party line over and over? Don't get the answer wrong.

    hes wrong.

    The other way around, the EU has stopped petty nationalistic wars over trade etc between western European nations.
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  6. #26
    Cassandra Syndrome Cassandra Syndrome is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by statsman View Post
    Entirely peaceful.
    So in 300 years time, when you write about how the European Union was founded do you ignore what happened directly beforehand?
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  7. #27
    Cassandra Syndrome Cassandra Syndrome is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by statsman View Post
    You're being far too sensible; maybe you're on the wrong website.
    So why have you made 12,000 posts here?
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  8. #28
    MacBeth MacBeth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thac0man View Post
    No, I do not think so. Only from a cloistered tower in academia land could he interpret the EU as comparible to the Napoleonic, Nazi or even Roman Empires.

    To quote his first line, the part where he tees off into the scrub

    So he was asleep for the whole Nazi thingy? Really, this is some weird stuff and one has to assume that while in his tower, he has been sleeping for a few centuries.

    His amazing idea:


    ....is well known and often cited as the ideal or goal of the EU. If the EU members again assert their belief that diversity is the strenght of Europe, will Baudet think he is getting credit for the idea? It is that odd to say what he says now. Maybe he will have have a good idea about harnessing the power of steam, and share it with us too while he is at it.
    You're completely wrong and probably don't understand what you are talking about. Of course Hitler was trying to build up an empire and unify europe under German control.

    And the EU does not respect the nation state. Your use of the word "diversity" leads me to question if you even know what a nation state is.
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  9. #29
    MacBeth MacBeth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris555 View Post
    hes wrong.

    The other way around, the EU has stopped petty nationalistic wars over trade etc between western European nations.
    Give me an example of the wars it stopped? What wars would have occurred if it were not for the EU?
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  10. #30
    Telemachus Telemachus is offline
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    Of course he is right

    Once again someone confirms it is Internationalism not Nationalism that caused most of the last centuries wars.

    We have people on the liberal right and left however calling more Internationalism all the time, inextricable strangling all the western nation-states in a cob web of treaties and soft totalitarianism.

    We have had lads on this site calling for the invasion of syria, libya and even somalia at one point or another under the guise of 'human rights'.
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