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  1. #281
    kvran kvran is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrD011 View Post
    Mario Monti is the only PM in the developed democratic world that didn't have to face an election to obtain his position . Its quite clear from his background as (a former European advisor to Goldman Sachs, a European chairman of the Trilateral Commission, a member of the Bilderberg Group) that he was put there at the Behest of unelected EU officials and private Bankers to protect Bankers interests . None of his cabinet are elected either and yet the EU seems very happy with the situation with Merkel praising the Italian setup on a regular basis.
    John Bruton was never elected as Taoiseach was he illegitimate?

    It's a fun conspiracy but prove it. Plenty politicians have private sector backgrounds it doesn't make them slave to whatever that corporate interest was. Was the president of Italy in on this conspiracy when he invited him to form a Government? What about the major Italian political parties (including the left) who support his government? As well as display of support from the Senate. If he is so undemocratic why isnt there a sizeable noteworthy anti Mario Monti movement in Italy?

    Bemoan his appointment all you want but you cant just call something undemocratic just because it doesnt go your way. Angela Merkel can say what she wants it doesnt prove causality. Italy appointed Mario Monti within the existing processes of the Italian government and again what does it have to do with the EU?

    So far you have only pointed to Merkel approving of Mario Monti it doesn't equate to a puppet government in Italy.
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  2. #282
    NewDawn1 NewDawn1 is offline

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    I think I need to start a new thread. 'Why do Europhiles like people from other countries telling them what to do?'
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  3. #283
    kvran kvran is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewDawn1 View Post
    I think I need to start a new thread. 'Why do Europhiles like people from other countries telling them what to do?'
    I look forward to that thread.

    I would like to see the eurosceptics here explain two things as accurately as possibly:

    How the members of EU institutions (Commission, Parliament and Council in all it's forms) are selected and what process proposed EU legislation goes through before it becomes EU policy?
    Last edited by kvran; 13th August 2012 at 06:04 PM.
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  4. #284
    MrD011 MrD011 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by kvran View Post
    Bemoan his appointment all you want but you cant just call something undemocratic just because it doesnt go your way.
    I'm not . I'm calling a spade a spade , if a PM doesn't have to face an election to obtain their position well clearly thats undemocratic . whats more if their entire cabinet doesn't include a single elected politician , well come on .

    Quote Originally Posted by kvran View Post
    Italy appointed Mario Monti within the existing processes of the Italian government and again what does it have to do with the EU?
    Him and his cabinet have been put there at the behest of bankers and eu officials to protect the banks.

    if Mario's background is not enough to convince you , you only have to look at one of his unelected cabinet ministers - Corrado Passera - a former CEO of Italys largest Banking group. (Intesa Sanpaolo)
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  5. #285
    NewDawn1 NewDawn1 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvran View Post
    I look forward to that thread.

    I would like to see the eurosceptics here explain two things as accurately as possibly:

    How the members of EU institutions (Commission, Parliament and Council in all it's forms) are selected and what process proposed EU legislation goes through before it becomes EU policy?
    Did you read the OP?

    And might that not be the whole point? People democratically voting for people from other countries to tell them what to do!
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  6. #286
    paulp paulp is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewDawn1 View Post
    I think I need to start a new thread. 'Why do Europhiles like people from other countries telling them what to do?'
    What about "why we think other country's electoral systems are undemocratic"
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  7. #287
    shiel shiel is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewDawn1 View Post
    I think I need to start a new thread. 'Why do Europhiles like people from other countries telling them what to do?'
    Alternatively you could start one with 'Why do Europhobes hate other countries cooperating with one another?'
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  8. #288
    kvran kvran is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewDawn1 View Post
    Did you read the OP?

    And might that not be the whole point? People democratically voting for people from other countries to tell them what to do!
    In my previous comments throughout this thread I have rubbished the points in the OP.

    You have clearly been taken in by the whole industry that has grown up around Eurosceptcism that peddles the same nonsense the whole time either totally fabricating stories (such as straight bananas and hard hats for tight rope walkers) or taking some obscure example or mistake and blowing it out of proporation. Not to mention huge leaps in logic and an unwillingness to critical engage with the real EU process.

    Here are some decent sources on EU developments and voting patterns:

    Euractiv
    European voice (from same publishers as the Economist)
    Votewatch.eu
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  9. #289
    Al. Al. is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvran View Post
    In my previous comments throughout this thread I have rubbished the points in the OP
    No, you said absolutely nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by kvran View Post
    You have clearly been taken in by the whole industry that has grown up around Eurosceptcism that peddles the same nonsense the whole time either totally fabricating stories (such as straight bananas and hard hats for tight rope walkers) or taking some obscure example or mistake and blowing it out of proporation. Not to mention huge leaps in logic and an unwillingness to critical engage with the real EU process
    Ad hominem. And are you calling Vladimir Bukovsky "taken in by the whole industry," never mind calling him a fabricator? If you are, then it merely makes you look like an apparatchik and destroys your credibility.

    Bukovsky's the man that compared the EU's legislative process to the USSR's. He compared the Commission to the Politburo and the Parliament to the Supreme Soviet, and the Parliament as a worse rubber stamp than the Supreme Soviet, if possible. No executive in a democracy ever has legislative initiative (let alone sole executive initiative), and certainly not an appointed executive—that means no separation of powers, and representative democracy cannot and does not exist without separation of powers. (But by the pro-EU standard, the USSR was far more democratic than the EU in certain areas!)
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  10. #290
    kvran kvran is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    No, you said absolutely nothing.Ad hominem. And are you calling Vladimir Bukovsky "taken in by the whole industry," never mind calling him a fabricator? If you are, then it merely makes you look like an apparatchik and destroys your credibility.

    Bukovsky's the man that compared the EU's legislative process to the USSR's. He compared the Commission to the Politburo and the Parliament to the Supreme Soviet, and the Parliament as a worse rubber stamp than the Supreme Soviet, if possible. No executive in a democracy ever has legislative initiative (let alone sole executive initiative), and certainly not an appointed executive—that means no separation of powers, and representative democracy cannot and does not exist without separation of powers. (But by the pro-EU standard, the USSR was far more democratic than the EU in certain areas!)
    When did Vladimir Bukovsky come into this? The OP referred to Hugh Williams book which contained 101 reasons for the UK to leave the EU.

    Which in my previous posts I have detailed at length how many of the points are either semantics or misconstruing the facts as well as oversimplification. In later posts I've pointed out how the EU democratic process while not perfect is comparable to member states.

    In the majority of countries the executive has sole legislative power such as in Ireland where our Cabinet appointed by Dail and rubber stamped by the president is the supreme power with the Dail on a leash due to the whip system. Where is the separation of powers in that? Same in the UK the Cabinet has sole legislative power with oversight from two useless unelected institutions (house of lords, monarchy). Whatever your opinion I wouldn't be as naive to make claims to absolute truths.

    You don't seem to realise that Commissioners are appointed by member states and approved after interview by the Parliament. Then the policy is drafted by director generals which are made up of senior civil servants of the member states. As well as the European council setting the agenda for the legislative season. The council also has the power to initiate legislation in the area of CFSP since it is the sole remit of the Council.

    You can make radical comparisons all you want but it doesn't reflect reality. If the parliament is such a rubber stamp institution why did it vote down ACTA? How did it manage to get the returns directive past the European council?

    Can you even tell me how a Commission proposal get ratified?

    I don't get how you can have such a double standard, banging on about the EU isn't a democracy but defend to the death the notion that the EU member states are the ideals of democracy.
    Last edited by kvran; 14th August 2012 at 03:55 AM.
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