Paul Williams - Shell to Sea TV3 Docu. - Pre-Election Special ?

[Ecoguy]

Really excellent post, I have been reading every thread on the internet about this dispute since it started and you have hit the nail directly on the head. This is the first comment I have made o it as I am completely impartial to the scenario and you have summed up what my conclusions exactly.

Finna Fail/Corrib/Shinners/hippies/Gaurds/Williams/locals what a cocktail of self interested and biased groups.

Corrib have done a deal, a whole lot better than the one done with the church/Ryan report and It should be possible to maybe, just maybe to go back to Corrib in 3-5 yrs and re-negotiate something better out of them.

We should watch that the profits are taxed fairly and that we are not screwed, and maybe it is about time the protestors went home and took a look at what is coming up next rather than crying over spilt milk.

The Garda are quite happy to keep it going up there, lots of houses bought from this particular expense trip.

We have a tough climb ahead of us and this is a bloody waste of energy.

Thank you very much for that post. Now I know exactly how I feel and why I spend so much time reading through facts and misinformation.

What exactly are you impressed by?? - Your knowledge of Shells modus operandi and whats going on in North Mayo is even more pathetic than Shu's

PS: Stick to reading the Indo on this so your biased mind isn't troubled by anything but Shell PR

[Ecoguy]

Ive only read this page. It wouldn't matter if Miriam Cotton said that Shell had disovered a treacle well under the runway at Knock Airport: its one newspaper article ffs.

I've debated with anti-Shell people too about the uneven quality of information coming out from the campaigns. For example, they failed to produce photographs of Willie Corduff's bruises when he was perfectly willing to provide same. This left a huge cloud over the campaign for a critical few weeks.

Really, if Schuhart is pro-Shell, he shouldn't worry about the PR coming from the anti-Shell groups. Its to be frank a disaster.

Fair point but even when the Photos were produced the usual shower chose to ignore them!!

[cactusflower]

Fair point but even when the Photos were produced the usual shower chose to ignore them!!

You're right, they always would, but its the wider population that needs to be reached.

[truthisfree]

What exactly are you impressed by?? - Your knowledge of Shells modus operandi and whats going on in North Mayo is even more pathetic than Shu's

PS: Stick to reading the Indo on this so your biased mind isn't troubled by anything but Shell PR

"I swear, if you think about the Shell to Sea propaganda for more than two minutes it starts to fall apart. The survival of this campaign is a tribute to the inability of Irish public debate to embrace reality."

That is the line that did it for me, this race is over and the horses have passed the finishing line a long time ago.

i do not want to see Shell rob us blind but the deal was done and as such should be honoured, possibly with some pressure, and not another protest that costs 11 million in Garda presence, there could be additional bonuses for us.

I will always look to support the David in a situation like this but sometimes the small guy is wrong too.....

And I think for myself, do you seriously think I would let any of the various groups involved in this think for me?

[Ecoguy]

"I swear, if you think about the Shell to Sea propaganda for more than two minutes it starts to fall apart. The survival of this campaign is a tribute to the inability of Irish public debate to embrace reality."

That is the line that did it for me, this race is over and the horses have passed the finishing line a long time ago.

i do not want to see Shell rob us blind but the deal was done and as such should be honoured, possibly with some pressure, and not another protest that costs 11 million in Garda presence, there could be additional bonuses for us.

I will always look to support the David in a situation like this but sometimes the small guy is wrong too.....

And I think for myself, do you seriously think I would let any of the various groups involved in this think for me?

I take 2 things from the above

1) You've never witnessed(let alone lived near one) a Shell refinery in operation

2) You don't live in a certain part of North Mayo( or intend to in the near future)

PS - Its easy to lecture people on an this issue when you and your family are not the ones in harms way

[Schuhart]

You don't live in a certain part of North Mayo( or intend to in the near future)

You mean like this group of Mayo residents, arrested on trumped-up charges by an Irish State that is only a lackey of Shell?

The High Court has granted bail to seven people arrested in connection with the ongoing dispute over the laying of a Shell gas pipeline in Co Mayo.

Today Mr Justice Patrick McCarthy granted bail to three men: James Marlow and Nathan Nadim Samari, both British citizens with addresses at The Rossport Solidarity Camp, Barnacoilla, Pullathomas, Ballina, Co Mayo; and Eoin Lawless of Charlestown Drive, Finglas, Dublin 11.

Late on Wednesday evening the High Court granted bail to four others: Frances Barker, Rodney Gardens, Bromley England; Danielle Gibbins, Clarkes Crescent, Ecclestone, Merseyside; Alma Barker a French citizen with an address at Welwaart, Canute House, Durhamwharf Drive, Middlesex, England; and Sophie Bollard from South Avenue, Ryton, Tyne and Wear, England.

Its easy to lecture people on an this issue when you and your family are not the ones in harms way

Its easy to lecture people when they make no sense.

[Seán E. Ryan]

To be clear, as I've set out above, it is not being claimed by lots of different groups that Tutu called for an inquiry. Its being claimed by Mayo News, with Miriam Cotton seeming to pick up and add to that claim. Tutu#s full statement (which is reproduced by lots of different groups) doesn't actually contain the words attributed by Mayo News.

The significance of this is that Miriam Cotton uses the fact that this claim of a call for an enquiry has not been repeated in other papers is evidence of media bias. Yet, this claim does not have a clear source.

I may try emailing Tutu's office, and hopefully I'll get more of a response than I did when I contacted the Goldman Foundation about the inaccurate information about Rossport on their website.I've invested €3.95, and I'm underwhelmed. There's an interview with the guy who's boat sank, a story about the planning inquiry and a slightly confused piece by Miriam Cotton calling for the media to concentrate on reporting the facts. Physician heal thyself.

To pick one non-sequitor (bearing in mind I know nothing about this issue apart from the threads I've imbroiled myself in here) she says, on the one hand, that Shell were afraid that the Rossport fisherman who's boat sank would win some court case about his right to fish, and this would put the kibbosh on their pipelaying. She then tries to run this into why they sank his boat - as if sinking his boat would end the court action.

I swear, if you think about the Shell to Sea propaganda for more than two minutes it starts to fall apart. The survival of this campaign is a tribute to the inability of Irish public debate to embrace reality.

I think that you're guilty of the very practice that you are accusing others of, once you boil your argument down to its essentials.

You're saying, I believe, that folks at the Mayo News, people like Miriam Cotton, etc. have published material that may be false and or misleading, and that they may not have checked and substantiated sources, etc. If this is what you're saying, fair enough. But, you have not bothered to verify what you've assumed, instead you have used your assumptions as a base to launch character assassinations. Which just happens to be the very pastime you're having a gripe about.

The non-sequitur is more applied to your misunderstanding of the topic matter, as opposed to having actually found a faulty argument.

Currently, Pat O'Donnell most certainly has a right to fish and be in that area. In my opinion, there's a good argument to be had, that would say that Shell has no legal right to be there (and even if there were such a right, a non-constitutional one, it would not override Pat's constitutional right to provide for his family). Then again, opinions are two a penny, and they're expensive at even that. Let's keep my opinion free from contaminating this point. Let's accept that Shell has a legal right to be there. Both sets of rights cannot be facilitated at the same time. The only way of deciding which party possesses superior rights is for the courts to decide. If it were to be decided that a constitutional right was superior to a non-constitutional right, it would immediately and effectively put an end to Shell's plan to bring a pipeline ashore at Glengad beach. Now, if by some superior form or logic, or otherwise, you can dispute this, I'd be very happy to hear about and discuss it. Maura was very right to highlight this as a legitimate motive to take Pat O'Donnell and his rights out of the picture. Particularly so when media spin, thus far, has ridiculed the possibility that Shell and its mercenaries could possibly have any motives.

Finally, you seem an intelligent enough person. But I've seen you say at many instances, that you're unaware of the underlying arguments and facts that are associated with what's going on in Mayo. If you don't owe it to those who wish to engage you in reasoned debate and discussion, do you not owe it to yourself to equip yourself with the very tools that would facilitate a competent argument coming from you. I'm not playing the player here, this is an honest observation on my part. In fairness, most of the assumptions you've made and the questions you've asked, though complex, would have required only one-liners, for answers, if you were familiar with the subject matter.

That said, there's a lot of material out there. I fully understand that undertaking to study it would require a lot of commitment. If you'd prefer to plough ahead as before, might I suggest that you stick to one argument at a time. Carpet bombing a debate with assumptions put forward as facts moreso than as questions, is par for a propagandist, it is far from reasonable and still further from respectable.

[truthisfree]

I take 2 things from the above

1) You've never witnessed(let alone lived near one) a Shell refinery in operation

2) You don't live in a certain part of North Mayo( or intend to in the near future)

PS - Its easy to lecture people on an this issue when you and your family are not the ones in harms way

You could not be wronger about all except the point about living in Mayo again, that is a still maybe. And I have lived beside a Nuclear reactor as well, I do not have time to debate personal issues with you as i now know what to do about this in a very small way and I want to get on with it.

[Ecoguy]

You could not be wronger about all except the point about living in Mayo again, that is a still maybe. And I have lived beside a Nuclear reactor as well, I do not have time to debate personal issues with you as i now know what to do about this in a very small way and I want to get on with it.

What refineries would these be?? - surely not the ones in the Niger Delta, Durban or Kuwait (the latter two which I have witnessed - and not a pretty site!!).

You don't appear to realize how weak environmental law is in Ireland ie. self regulation, lax enforcement, minuscule fines in the district court for serious breaches etc.

[Ecoguy]

You mean like this group of Mayo residents, arrested on trumped-up charges by an Irish State that is only a lackey of Shell?Its easy to lecture people when they make no sense.

I see your still diggin on behalf of Shell

Here's a few for ya - The Rossport 5, Maura Harrington, local Fishermen etc.


PS: I can only conclude from your BS and spin that Shell PR are still nervous about things - amazing really given that they have all the state security apparatuse at their disposal(not to mention their own paramilitarias that appear to be above the law thanx to the IRMS connection), the government and state agencies in their pocket, plus the Irish corporate media.