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About LinkBacksI've posted a thread on the SoI website to clarify some of the main outstanding questions, if anyone missed it on the economics thread.
I've posted a thread on the SoI website to clarify some of the main outstanding questions, if anyone missed it on the economics thread.
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Sparkey,
My daughter has pointed out to me that in the heat of battle, back when we were discussing wind efficiency and availability, that I omitted to tell you that a major part of the research being done by S of I, is a wind map for the country at heights above 50m elevation from ground level, referenced and integrated with the specifications of the major commercial wind turbines, with the intention of finding the most efficient sites in the entire country.
Then once the best sites are found, costing grid connection using a 60kva link to the grid, this method can be carried on large "telephone poles" as opposed to pylons, and offers a very significant cost advantage to the wind farm and the grid, and so lowers the cost per MW of wind energy. It also offers cost, time and visual amenity advantages in the planning process.
I hope that this info can soften your opposition to S of I and apologize for my mistake.
Fainnafailure
I was browsing the SOI website and someone has put up a link of a presentation on 04 June 09 by SOI to the Institute of International and European Affairs (IIEA).
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWl2TuHcY6w]YouTube - Spirit of Ireland Group[/ame]
It answers a lot of the queries as regards locations and proposed costs - €11.4 billion utilising 2 reservoirs (800m each). A few noteworthy points:
SOI state that it would require three reservoirs to store one weeks supply of electricity which, I would assume, would be the absolute minimum amount required. That adds another 800 million to the cost so its now up to 12.2 billion.
There is absolutely no mention of the environmental implications of the proposal unless you include the fact that it is stated that SOI cannot work with the existing planning laws so 4 senior counsel are working on a proposal aimed at changing the planning laws. SOI also state that it is fortunate that where the wind is strongest is located at the "worst and poorest" land in the west of Ireland. It is also the most protected land in Ireland under EU law so I can see why they are trying to change the Irish planning laws in order to proceed. Going against the EU directives when Ireland has already been taken to the ECJ for inadequate windfarm planning will not be as easy.
The maps included show two different scenarios for the locations of the windfarms. 60 windfarms over 7 counties (2500 turbines proposed = 41 turbines per farm) or clusters of
13 windfarms over 7 counties (192 turbines per farm). "The turbines will be 3mw which require huge foundations." The environmental impact on sensitive lands will be astronomical as will the amount of objections.
The video is basically a 42 minute sell on the advantages of wind power in Ireland. The conclusion includes the following:
"We have to decide, as a people, whether are we going to do this, are we going to change the law to make wind farming easy, quick and affordable - not democratic - affordable."
"Are we going to deal with the compulsory purchase of 2 or 3 valleys."
"The shortage of expertise within the group at the moment is economics."
I had not actually seen this. Thank you.Originally Posted by realist
I does answer alot of the questions that I had asked.
From a quick review (and before I look at my notes)
The costings of 11.64 billion seem low but I am open to be proven wrong.
I am concerned with the limit of 1 weeks storage. It appears very low to me but while we have existing capacity as a backup its not a serious issue. However if the proposal does work it will put us in a position where the existing capacity will be unviable and wound down meaning we cannot depend on it indefinitely.
But by far my largest concern is the following......
SOI made a huge issue out of the lower price of the electricity they would produce and the possibility for export.
The proposal mentioned generating revenue of 2.6billion per annum based on a 2 GW output . Based on a 24/7 output that equates to 17,520 Gw Hours or 17,520,000MW hours generating 2.6 billion in revenue over a year.
or €148 per MW hour which is very very very expensive. Its over three times the current UK wholesale price of electricity.
As I have said previously I have no doubts what SOI propose can be done. My doubts are entire how financially viable it is.
Fianna Failure. I would appreciate some feedback on this. Am I missing something or are SOI budgets based on a price of €148 per GW hour ?
So now you may understand the complexity of this project and why it cannot be described in a short way. There are no engineering mountains to climb, but many social ones, the economic and employment returns are easily understood, but the changes required to social thinking are pretty big. My own point of view on where we are at the moment, is to imagine the oil prospector standing in the middle of Saudi Arabia after finding such a huge resource and asking himself do I work with the sheik or do I work with the people and S of I have decided to go the people route.
Two things about that video. It is not just about wind, it is about all renewable energy sources, which Ireland is massively rich in, and that was not emphasised in the presentation. And that mention of CPO's should only be linked to common land, of which the ownership is unknown and untraceable, and very precise use of words like that have to enter the arena.
S of I will not impose this idea on anyone and the approach is to ask for consent to implement this project and ask that everyone becomes a share holder in the project and before the answer is given, to have draft versions of any changes to legislation necessary, available for viewing.
And if the answer is no, go away, they will
Sparkey,
If they were I would be talking to you from the comfort of a straitjacket, and I don't have a final price to quote to you, but the effect of large storage will have the effect of a pretty flat line on graph of peak and off peak prices. And I imagine the regulator will have a view on the final price.Fianna Failure. I would appreciate some feedback on this. Am I missing something or are SOI budgets based on a price of €148 per GW hour ?
I never doubted the scale of the project and also I have stated many times that it was physically possible. My query has always been on the financial viability of it.
I had a look at my notes and even re-watched the presentation and they are talking about 2GW from the reservoirs possibly 3. That's means my figures are right.
Unless they are basing their figures not only on output from the reservoirs but also additional output from the wind-farms which to be fair in pretty much unsaleable except on the spot market where it will be worth peanuts. I could be wrong but I would hope (and expect) that they would be quoting all figures from the reservoirs as this would be the only secure supply.
The budgeted selling price to cover costs and make a profit (both fro the wind guys and the reservoir guys) is a key factor on the viability of the project and any info you could give on this would most appreciated.
On a side note remember I did a calculation earlier (based on older figures which are higher than those now quoted but also on a longer depreciation period) that gave about the same figure of €148 per MW hour.
But S of I intend to decimate the set up and equipment purchase part of the current price of wind and increase availability by site selection in the best places with no regard to conventional grid connection methods and costs.
The presentation specified €9 billion spent on wind farms, with translates to around 9GW capacity, presumably around 3-4MW stable, which is within a hair of energy independence, especially with reservoir backup. I'd assume that's only phase one, within five years. Phase two is where we start exporting. And of course you can sell direct from the turbines without going through the reservoirs.
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I do not agree Dios.
Firstly 9GW is not energy independence, it is electrical grid independence. We will still be importing oil for cars and home heating etc which is quite a lot of energy. So I have a major proble with using energy independence in this proposal.
Secondly the resevoirs are supposed to be used for backup as clarified above. I will have to find the calculation but I think I calculated that the SOI capacity would not reach the daily peak capacity requirements and therefore would either have to import or use capacity from the resevoirs; neither option acceptable under the scenarios defined by SOI (i.e. enrergy independence and using resevoirs as backup).
I will reply to more later.
I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers.
Siegfried Sassoon
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