Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[fiannafailure]

My point is that SOI's proposal is overambitious to the point of silliness, a smaller proposal to prove the system would make more sense. Despite their claims, it is still a theoretical exercise and hiding behind the fear of offending the locals does not inspire confidence in a scheme that is big on hype and short on detail. The lead on a conventional power station can be 10 years, it can also be 3, depending on size & type.

WOMBAT,
If any one has ever told you that you can have renewable power on a small scale, go back and kick him in the goolies, cos he lied to you man, and maybe I feel a physics lesson coming on.

And if you can show me a power station that was decided on, designed and built and generated power within 3 years in Ireland, I will send my goolies to you by email for a good kicking, but it has to new not refurbished.

Who said anything about offending locals, and everything is theoretical until its built

and what about the poor grid lads going grey at thought of trap getting us to South Africa, and you didn't mention the Russians and their hissy fits and look what happened the last time Ireland was in the s****, the gov gave all our fish away and if we dont make a claim on the wind and waves now.............

[fiannafailure]

I completely disagree with the assertion that for 20% renewables that the grid needs pumped storage. Denmark may I remind you at 10-14% of its grid from wind does not emply any significant or large pumped storage devices.

And I also disagree that it is warranted in listening to anything SOI delivers from this point on (unless they see below...) becasue of the lunacy of their opening statements.
Even if all the work could be completed tomorrow my back of envelope calculations show that under the most ideal condistions for the SOI proposal (zero cost for PSH and losses in grid) would still not meet their 5 year energy independence.

Oh and also we would not be energy independent. Remember all those cars, they would still depend on foreign energy reserves in the form of oil. SOI are not planning to replace this dependance. Hell they are not even planning to meet peak load at any given time. Rather they plan to store for siad peak loads which means they have to be able to store enough energy every night to meet said load. Their PSH are not big enough to do that under ideal conditions.

Unless they produce a full and frank evaluation defining
the amount of turbines required and analysis of that figure
the amount of PSH required and justification of that figure
the cost of such systems
the location of such systems
And timeline for implementation.

|At the moment they have not even produced a simple design never mind a complete project plan to achieve their goals. This sort of ridiculous attention grabbing sensationalism belongs in the sun, not in engineering.

I know a secret



almost done



you might approve

no bulls***
Soon

Denmark is not Ireland

[wombat]

WOMBAT,
If any one has ever told you that you can have renewable power on a small scale, go back and kick him in the goolies, cos he lied to you man, and maybe I feel a physics lesson coming on. ...........

We have windmills sprouting like weeds on hilltops around the country, most around the 1.5 MW range in groups of less than 20, so I think its Mr Ryan you need to kick. The physics of converting potential to kinetic energy is simple, the engineering needed to make it a practical source of electricity is not. Since you seem to have a connection to SOI, what is the available head at the proposed site? Just because I'm sceptical does not mean I think its a bad idea, I just want to be convinced, its science not religion.

[riven]

I know a secret
almost done
you might approve
no bulls***
Soon
Denmark is not Ireland

Really I would expect such rumblings to be highlighted in journals for wind energy and such like...but nothing as of yet.

The Denmark reference is showing that your claim that 20% renewables without PSH is not possible/the PSH is needed. Denmark, a country that has a similar level of renewable use to that you consider to require PSH does not need PSH showing your statement to be incorrect.

[fiannafailure]

We have windmills sprouting like weeds on hilltops around the country, most around the 1.5 MW range in groups of less than 20, so I think its Mr Ryan you need to kick. The physics of converting potential to kinetic energy is simple, the engineering needed to make it a practical source of electricity is not. Since you seem to have a connection to SOI, what is the available head at the proposed site? Just because I'm sceptical does not mean I think its a bad idea, I just want to be convinced, its science not religion.

wombat
I feel like politician coming up to an election making vague promises, but its killing me as much as you, not having the info in the public domain yet. And your scepticism is a healthy attitude to the present situation. I can only say there will be solid info soon and there may be clues in the imaginary Blendalough hydro unit being built in the S of I forum.

And you point to a subject where a lot of S of I time is being spent at the moment. The present build out of turbines is subject to local planning guidelines and as you point out a lot of the older sites now completed use the smaller 1.5MW turbines in smaller densities, S of I are working to educate the planning profession of the waste of wind resources under the current density guidelines.

Would it be correct that you have an interest in wave/tidal

[fiannafailure]

Really I would expect such rumblings to be highlighted in journals for wind energy and such like...but nothing as of yet.

The Denmark reference is showing that your claim that 20% renewables without PSH is not possible/the PSH is needed. Denmark, a country that has a similar level of renewable use to that you consider to require PSH does not need PSH showing your statement to be incorrect.

Riven, if you had the time, search S of I forum for posts by eleceng and replies to same, you may begin to change your opinion. look in technical section/pumped storage model.

[sparkey321]

It SHOULD be a government project! - energy security and save 6 billion euros a year? Its a no-brainer. The government should fast-track it.

Joel.

Will you please check the figures before jumping on the bandwagon.

Assuming the project is a massive success it will not save us 6 billion a year, not even close, and it will not guarantee energy security.

6 billion is not a real figure. it was made up.

The entire spend of fuel to generate electricity in Ireland is less than 2 billion. I gave the exact figures earlier in this thread.

Even is SOI managed to replace all this (which even they say they wont, even using their figures it will be at best half) it will not guarantee energy security. There will still be a massive requirement for imported fuels. Home heating, transport etc.

The entire cost benefit side of SOI proposal (as quoted on the website) is a work of fiction. And poor fiction at that.

[sparkey321]

Seriously lads and lasies,
If I were to say
I admit the launch of the concept was a bit over the top.

Then you would be the first. SOI still have to admit it.

I admit the reality of powering Ireland from wind alone will be a long time coming

based on current wind turbine technology and power storage technology a long long long long long long long time.

I admit it would be lunacy to shut existing power plants

Not unnecessarily. If a clean, efficient, viable alternative was found then we have a number of older dirty, expensive, and inefficient power plants that I would support being shut down.

I admit that without reality coming into the debate it will remain a nice idea

Reality is not a problem for me. I have been fighting to inject reality into this debate. Its SOI you need to talk to. They have been caught out but refuse to admit it. Their alacoyotes seem to be brainwashed and keep repeating incorrect figures and data.

I admit that I had a chuckle with sparkey

Glad you enjoyed it.

I admit there is a phoney war feel in the air following the big launch

No war, just annoyance at a group who did (in all fairness and with no bias) a huge amount of damage to the credibility of alternative energy. Making unrealistic claims, quoting incorrect figures and then screaming at and insulting the people who point out your mistakes is not a good way to build credibility.

I admit that though a huge amount of thought, work and money has gone into this,

Here we differ. I honest don't think there has.

ten times more has to go in before the first watt leaves the reservoir.

Even more and that's before you even contemplate building the reservoir.

Where SOI really annoyed me is that they claimed wind was the solution but when you look at what they are saying they want nothing to do with the wind. They are only interested in the storage part and have no interest in generating the initial power. They have not even budgeted for the wind side of it.

But instead said

The national grid needs the pumped storage unit/s if we are ever to have more than 20% renewable's

I agree it needs storage. i don't necessarily agree that SOI plan is a workable option.

There is a serious amount of privately funded, mostly co-ops, wind farms going or about to go through planning

I agree. I don't necessarily agree that they will provide a positive benefit to the country though.

On the day the pumped storage unit opens in about 5 years,

If this happens in 5 years I will be shocked, stunned and broke because I am willing to bet my house it wont happen.

and provided we can connect by then, all the windfarms going through planning and waiting for a grid connection, then we will be exporting some juice, the following day or be up to 35% energy independent if it was necessary

Big difference to the SOI proposal. I believe they quoted energy independence and 6 billion per annum in exports.....

There is a fully costed, technical document ready for one prime site. If this site does not progress then we will move to the second

Number 1. I don't think there is.
Number 2. Why would we take the findings seriously ? The figures quoted by SOI to data have been rubbish. They have been so far out as to be in a different planet. Their credibility has been destroyed.

If they do have this data then why have they quoted such rubbish figures ?

Rather than looking at this as a wind project, it was looked at as a basis for creating a renewable energy industry, with a guaranteed customer,
S of I pumped storage unit/s.

Because that is not what they claimed.

Then offshore wind farms become commercially and technically viable without subsidies

The wave and tidal gents can get real r and d investment because they have a real market to develop to

That's not a when its a IF. and a big IF.

We have expressions of interest on financing but we would prefer if the people of Ireland formed a co-op to control the project and add outside financing if necessary

Why ?

[

We are where we are but if it had been launched in this way, would you be more or less receptive

Yes. If it had been launched with realistic expectation and proper figures then yes I would. What they did was to invent figures to get cheap publicity. Now they have built up an expectation that they cannot meet. That is not the way to get respect and support. If they have PR guy on board then sack him. If not then its their own fault.

sparkey321 there is a commercial site in donegal which consistently averages over 40% year on year and I have e-mailed them for permission to release their name

Please do. I would LOVE to see them an their figures. So would alot of other people..

FiannaFailure is not a member of S of I ...........yet, but is a professional technologist

Then stop using "we".

[fiannafailure]

Sparkey321
I use we in normal conversation.

S of I aside for the moment

Do you agree that renewable energy is the way forward

The general public do not know or care about renewable's

What should be done to advance the debate and the realisation of same

[Calina]

Do you agree that renewable energy is the way forward

Duh.

The general public do not know or care about renewable's

You underestimate the general public. They are fully aware of renewables. They see wind turbines popping up all over the place. They do know and they do care and a hell of a lot of them are frantically googling their hearts out to find out if there is any merit to the Spirit of Ireland project, or, indeed, who the people behind it are. There is very little useful information on this available online.

So they are getting skeptical. This doesn't mean they do not know or care. It means they are cynical about unlikely claims.

What should be done to advance the debate and the realisation of same?

People coming out with pie in the sky projects and releasing financial figures that have zero basis in reality - such as Spirit of Ireland have done with their initial PR - are massively damaging the debate. If you want my opinion, it is going to take a lot of work to advance the debate because of what Spirit of Ireland have done in poisoning the waters.