Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[fiannafailure]

I don't want a say. I want to see more data, real costings, real budgets. However anyone that actually asks for this or questions the supplied figures is branded a fool or an oil company plant or a nuclear industry plant.

The two headline figures published of 30 billion and 50 billion were wrong. even using SOI figures and data they were way out. These are two basic numbers and if these are so far wrong then how are we supposed to believe a complicated figure like a costing ?

We are not anti renewable, we are intelligent enough to look at a project on its merits and without way more data this project has no merritts.

The figures also had words wrapped around them

And the stuff you asked for is being prepared and will be presented when ready.

[sparkey321]

The figures also had words wrapped around them

And the stuff you asked for is being prepared and will be presented when ready.

OK why am I so sceptical of this idea. Why does having such simple figures off make such a big difference.

Lets look at a simple component of this project. The number of wind turbine.

On the website SOI say that

For planning purposes it was assumed 2500 wind turbines each of 3 MW peak rating will produce an average output of about 3000 MW

It also says on the website

Average output is site dependant and typically ranges from 25% to 35% of rated capacity

I think those figures are optimistic and 25% is much closer to the correct figure than 35% but lets look at this again.

2,500 turbines at 3MW each = 7,500MW

Spirit of Ireland claim that this will provide a relatively consistent 3000 Mw output.

3,000 is 40% of 7,500 not this is much higher than the 25% to 35% efficacy they quote.

Looking at 35% efficient would require 8571MW of wind turbines
Or at 25% (which I think is way closer to the mark) would require 12,000.

In other words between 2917 turbines and 4,000 turbines or between 417 and 1,500 more than the figure quoted. That may not seem like a significant amount but when you consider that each turbine costs between 4 and 4.5 million installed and an additional 1500 turbines would require an addition 60% more land (or 1.6% of land mass) it makes a huge difference. And that’s only for 3 MW

We would need at least twice that to achieve energy independence which would require 3.2% of Ireland's land mass. Now 3.2% does not sound like a huge amount but let’s put it into context. That’s 2613.43 Km2 (assuming we are talking about the 32 counties is actually more if we are only talking about the 26)or to give you an idea of scale the equivalent of the entire county of Limerick.

But not every site is suitable for wind power but coasts are best. The entire coastline of Ireland is 3700KM long so that would mean we would need to cover the entire coast line of Ireland .7Km deep with wind turbines.

However the West coast is a far better location and SOI plan on using the west coast so let’s look at this again. We need to move all those turbines to the west coast but avoid obviously we cannot put turbines in Galway City or Kilrush or Sligo or any other of the coastal towns. How about the Burren ? I don’t think we could really put wind turbines all over the Burren or the Dingle peninsula. OK lets leave out Galway city, the Burren, the dingle peninsula Sligo, Kilrush and all the other coastal towns. Now we are talking about putting all these turbines in a coast line that’s really at a guess 1,000Km. So now we have a strip of wind turbines 2.6Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now lets look at exporting. To hit the 50 billion figure over 10 years SOI are quoting we would need to be at least doubling that output. So now we are talking a strip of wind turbines AT LEAST 5.2Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now do you grasp the potential problems.

oh and by the way the turbines alone would cost over the 10 billion quoted (A little over 12 billion to be a bit more precise and that's just to get energy independence), that's before grid infrastructure, the reservoirs, hydro equipment etc._

[joel]

OK why am I so sceptical of this idea. Why does having such simple figures off make such a big difference.

Lets look at a simple component of this project. The number of wind turbine.

On the website SOI say that

It also says on the website

I think those figures are optimistic and 25% is much closer to the correct figure than 35% but lets look at this again.

2,500 turbines at 3MW each = 7,500MW

Spirit of Ireland claim that this will provide a relatively consistent 3000 Mw output.

3,000 is 40% of 7,500 not this is much higher than the 25% to 35% efficacy they quote.

Looking at 35% efficient would require 8571MW of wind turbines
Or at 25% (which I think is way closer to the mark) would require 12,000.

In other words between 2917 turbines and 4,000 turbines or between 417 and 1,500 more than the figure quoted. That may not seem like a significant amount but when you consider that each turbine costs between 4 and 4.5 million installed and an additional 1500 turbines would require an addition 60% more land (or 1.6% of land mass) it makes a huge difference. And that’s only for 3 MW

We would need at least twice that to achieve energy independence which would require 3.2% of Ireland's land mass. Now 3.2% does not sound like a huge amount but let’s put it into context. That’s 2613.43 Km2 (assuming we are talking about the 32 counties is actually more if we are only talking about the 26)or to give you an idea of scale the equivalent of the entire county of Limerick.

But not every site is suitable for wind power but coasts are best. The entire coastline of Ireland is 3700KM long so that would mean we would need to cover the entire coast line of Ireland .7Km deep with wind turbines.

However the West coast is a far better location and SOI plan on using the west coast so let’s look at this again. We need to move all those turbines to the west coast but avoid obviously we cannot put turbines in Galway City or Kilrush or Sligo or any other of the coastal towns. How about the Burren ? I don’t think we could really put wind turbines all over the Burren or the Dingle peninsula. OK lets leave out Galway city, the Burren, the dingle peninsula Sligo, Kilrush and all the other coastal towns. Now we are talking about putting all these turbines in a coast line that’s really at a guess 1,000Km. So now we have a strip of wind turbines 2.6Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now lets look at exporting. To hit the 50 billion figure over 10 years SOI are quoting we would need to be at least doubling that output. So now we are talking a strip of wind turbines AT LEAST 5.2Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now do you grasp the potential problems.

oh and by the way the turbines alone would cost over the 10 billion quoted (A little over 12 billion to be a bit more precise and that's just to get energy independence), that's before grid infrastructure, the reservoirs, hydro equipment etc._

Why the need for "TWICE" the number of turbines for energy independence? - 3000mw average would be sufficent.

[fiannafailure]

OK why am I so sceptical of this idea. Why does having such simple figures off make such a big difference.

Lets look at a simple component of this project. The number of wind turbine.

On the website SOI say that

It also says on the website

I think those figures are optimistic and 25% is much closer to the correct figure than 35% but lets look at this again.

2,500 turbines at 3MW each = 7,500MW

Spirit of Ireland claim that this will provide a relatively consistent 3000 Mw output.

3,000 is 40% of 7,500 not this is much higher than the 25% to 35% efficacy they quote.

Looking at 35% efficient would require 8571MW of wind turbines
Or at 25% (which I think is way closer to the mark) would require 12,000.

In other words between 2917 turbines and 4,000 turbines or between 417 and 1,500 more than the figure quoted. That may not seem like a significant amount but when you consider that each turbine costs between 4 and 4.5 million installed and an additional 1500 turbines would require an addition 60% more land (or 1.6% of land mass) it makes a huge difference. And that’s only for 3 MW

We would need at least twice that to achieve energy independence which would require 3.2% of Ireland's land mass. Now 3.2% does not sound like a huge amount but let’s put it into context. That’s 2613.43 Km2 (assuming we are talking about the 32 counties is actually more if we are only talking about the 26)or to give you an idea of scale the equivalent of the entire county of Limerick.

But not every site is suitable for wind power but coasts are best. The entire coastline of Ireland is 3700KM long so that would mean we would need to cover the entire coast line of Ireland .7Km deep with wind turbines.

However the West coast is a far better location and SOI plan on using the west coast so let’s look at this again. We need to move all those turbines to the west coast but avoid obviously we cannot put turbines in Galway City or Kilrush or Sligo or any other of the coastal towns. How about the Burren ? I don’t think we could really put wind turbines all over the Burren or the Dingle peninsula. OK lets leave out Galway city, the Burren, the dingle peninsula Sligo, Kilrush and all the other coastal towns. Now we are talking about putting all these turbines in a coast line that’s really at a guess 1,000Km. So now we have a strip of wind turbines 2.6Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now lets look at exporting. To hit the 50 billion figure over 10 years SOI are quoting we would need to be at least doubling that output. So now we are talking a strip of wind turbines AT LEAST 5.2Km thick down the entire west coast.

Now do you grasp the potential problems.

oh and by the way the turbines alone would cost over the 10 billion quoted (A little over 12 billion to be a bit more precise and that's just to get energy independence), that's before grid infrastructure, the reservoirs, hydro equipment etc._

A lot of numbers there and I have learnt my lesson about this particular forum
I will get my head together and reply later tonight and I promise that I can make it more complicated

[sparkey321]

Why the need for "TWICE" the number of turbines for energy independence? - 3000mw average would be sufficent.

Because 3MW is not sufficient to meet peak demand.

And before you say it the reservoirs are not designed to meet peak demand they are designed to act as a backup when the wind fails. If you keep using them to meet peak demand then you will never get them full. We talked about this earlier.

edit and don't say we can import using the inter connector.

Its the funny thing about out neighbours their peak demand is the same time as our peak demand. This is about energy independence we would be better off with fossil fuel plants of our own rather than buying in fossil fuel or nuclear generated power from someone else. At least it would be honest.

[sparkey321]

A lot of numbers there and I have learnt my lesson about this particular forum
I will get my head together and reply later tonight and I promise that I can make it more complicated

its not complicated.

The figures came from SOI not from me. Where I disagreed with them I said so and gave alternatives. But in the main its their figures.

[joel]

Because 3MW is not sufficient to meet peak demand.

And before you say it the reservoirs are not designed to meet peak demand they are designed to act as a backup when the wind fails. If you keep using them to meet peak demand then you will never get them full. We talked about this earlier.

The resevoirs need to meet the AVERAGE demand. Peak demand is PART of the average. That is the meaning of AVERAGE.

[sparkey321]

The resevoirs need to meet the AVERAGE demand. Peak demand is PART of the average. That is the meaning of AVERAGE.

LOL

this is funny I thought you were a physicist.

Peak demand is approx 6000MW or 6GW or higher in winter. This is only going to increase especially as the government wants 205 of transport to be electric.

The reservoirs are there as a backup in case of wind failure.

If we have 3MW capacity then for large portions of time we will be draining our reservoirs to meet excess demand. We will have less time (far less if you take into account losses of 15 to 25% quoted by SOI) to refill the reservoirs. Even at lowest demand times our requirements are nearly 2000MW.

We cannot be sustainably energy independent with 3MW wind generating capacity. Even SOI admit that if you ask them.

Go visit the site read the forums.

[joel]

LOL

this is funny I thought you were a physicist.

Peak demand is approx 6000MW or 6GW or higher in winter. This is only going to increase especially as the government wants 205 of transport to be electric.

The reservoirs are there as a backup in case of wind failure.

If we have 3MW capacity then for large portions of time we will be draining our reservoirs to meet excess demand. We will have less time (far less if you take into account losses of 15 to 25% quoted by SOI) to refill the reservoirs. Even at lowest demand times our requirements are nearly 2000MW.

We cannot be sustainably energy independent with 3MW wind generating capacity. Even SOI admit that if you ask them.

Go visit the site read the forums.

What I said is correct - if average demand is 3mw then the resevoirs are sufficient. You are talking about EXTRA demand. You need to aquire a bit of logic.

[Calina]

Why the need for "TWICE" the number of turbines for energy independence? - 3000mw average would be sufficent.

No. The turbines will also need to pump up at the average to the pump stations. So they need to power the storage and the demand. Hence the requirement for twice the average at least. You could make an argument for more depending on whether you need excess power to pump the water back up on windfree days but at the very least, you need sufficient power for at least twice the average requirement from the turbines.

The question of the storage stations capacity is an entirely separate matter.

It really doesn't help the debate, by the way, if in discussing the matter, you start arguing about turbines and then in the middle switch to the storage stations. You and sparkey321 have not helped in this regard.