Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[myksav]

Are you stupid or just green ? Sure you don't want to buy my magic beans ? Or would you rather stick with the good old fossil fueled stations we have that cost for fuel and will cost even more in the future.

Or are you typical oirish, the last remnants of the dinosaurs ? Afraid of a little innovation ?

You argument is equally valid for them.

For the last time. Pumped storage does work. I have never ever said it does not. Japan is a 30MW plant Spirit of Ireland is talking about 4000MW. The Japanese system is not designed to provide power to the entire country. It is not the sole backup to windpower. Its like looking at a model of the space shuttle and deciding you could build the real thing.

Its not like scaling up a shirt from small to extra large.

If you actually bothered to read my posts you would see why I think the idea wont work or do you think the entire west coast from Cork to Donegal should be covered in a strip of wind turbines 1 mile thick ? That's not my figures by the way that's Spirit of Ireland's I think it will take even more. Guess whats in those areas. The cliffs of Moher, The Burren. Giants causeway, Dingle peninsula. I could go on. Is it green to dig all those areas up to put down windmills ? How about overhead 60KVA power cables strung across these areas ?
Do you think all that could be done for 10 billion ? or 100 billion ? or even 200 Billion. How much did it cost to put down a bit of light rail in Dublin ?

Take off those green tinted glasses and look at this objectively.

Ever see that episode of the Simpson's with the mono rail ?

What is your alternative to the problem of fuel costs into the future then? If you're so smart and intelligent to "know" that the ideas "will not work", you should have an alternative. You haven't put one forward.

Now, I do wonder why the likes of Toshiba are investing in the PSP systems. Stupid Japanese. Or maybe the Toshiba management and shareholders are all wearing green tinted glasses.

I think you don't actually read all of any posts as you seemed to have missed

If you think I'm a "greenie", look over the thread on nuclear power, where you will find that I have no real problems with nuclear power as long as the design is a good one. It's just not viable here in its present level of tech.

or maybe you only read posts directed at you.

You look to be seeing this idea as a sole source of electricity concept. I see it as part of a multiple system. Existing fossil fuel stations stay online for the moment, to be phased out as different systems* come online, the PSP acts as a strong buffer/supplier. *Wave powered generation, geothermal, etc. This will take a while to come online and there is always the danger of a repeat of the 70's with fuel supplies. Remenber the 70's? Queuing for fuel? Fuel rationing?

We are 90% dependant on outside fuel sources, if that is cut off for any reason, we lose 75%, approximately, of our power generation. Result, the country grinds to a complete halt, the economy flatlines completely and the last person leaving the country won't even have to switch off the lights.
Now, that is a worst case scenario but you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I ask again, qualified electrical engineer, what is your alternative solution?

[maxthedog]

Well for my part Nuclear shoud be considered and we could build the plant in England, and use the existing supply link through N.I. Irish solution to a Irish problem.

[Geckko]

What is your alternative to the problem of fuel costs into the future then? If you're so smart and intelligent to "know" that the ideas "will not work", you should have an alternative. You haven't put one forward.

Now, I do wonder why the likes of Toshiba are investing in the PSP systems. Stupid Japanese. Or maybe the Toshiba management and shareholders are all wearing green tinted glasses.

I think you don't actually read all of any posts as you seemed to have missed or maybe you only read posts directed at you.

You look to be seeing this idea as a sole source of electricity concept. I see it as part of a multiple system. Existing fossil fuel stations stay online for the moment, to be phased out as different systems* come online, the PSP acts as a strong buffer/supplier. *Wave powered generation, geothermal, etc. This will take a while to come online and there is always the danger of a repeat of the 70's with fuel supplies. Remenber the 70's? Queuing for fuel? Fuel rationing?

We are 90% dependant on outside fuel sources, if that is cut off for any reason, we lose 75%, approximately, of our power generation. Result, the country grinds to a complete halt, the economy flatlines completely and the last person leaving the country won't even have to switch off the lights.
Now, that is a worst case scenario but you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I ask again, qualified electrical engineer, what is your alternative solution?

It will be a long long time before there is insufficient fossil fuels available at a price that will provide a cheap source of energy for electricity generation.

At the same time, in 100 years time, we wll have all sorts of superior technology (maybe even nuclear fusion, or highly efficient solar) that will begin to compete on price and make sense.

Those two things combined will mean that if you keep meddling politicians out of its we will enjoy sheap electricity for centuries to come.


On a more specific note about pummped hydro, you are still missing some important understanding.

The Japanese are typcially using pumped store hydro as a way to even out fluctuating demand over short period (24 hours) not to act as back-up as is proposed here.

They are using the surplus (guarranteed) capacity of coal, gas of nuclear generation available in the night time to store energy to provide (guarranteed) supply in the peak day time. What it means is that you can run less total capacity and for a modest % of total supply the savings in running less total capacity exceed the additional leakages experienced in the storage and cenergy conversion of the hydro.

The Irish proposition is that pumped hydro will be used as a back-up and will be storing energy from a source that is not guarranteed.

Think through a smale scale person example. You have a radio in you kitchen that is on during the day and off during the night. You can either run it directly from generated supply or via rechargable batteries. Here is how thing differ (assumng you start with charged batteries:

Pumped as back up to 100% wind capacity (i.e. Spirit of Ireland proposal):
During the day you have your radio connected to your windmill. if the wind drops below optimal speed you need to use your batteries. During the night, the windmill keeps turning to charge the batteries
As long as there is just enough wind during the day and the night, you will be able to play your radio all day and have them fully recharged in the morning, available for back-up should the wind drop.
But if there is not much wind during the night, you batteries might not get fully charged. YOu have less back up the next day, which if still, will leave you without battery or wind supply.

Pumped as supplemental supply (e.g. as in Japan)
During the day you use both the battery and coal (say) generated supply to run your radio - note immediately that you won't need as much coal capacity, because you are getting battery input also (you don't need to retain the batteries as backup, because you are guarranteed that they will be fully charged in the morning when you can use the spare capacity of your coal generation to charge them up.)

That is one of the reasons why the SoI proposition is nonsense. It is proposing to use pumped hydro storage in a way that nobody does currently (or plans to). It is a use of the technololgy that makes no sense (i.e. as full back-up to an unreliable supply).

[sparkey321]

What is your alternative to the problem of fuel costs into the future then? If you're so smart and intelligent to "know" that the ideas "will not work", you should have an alternative. You haven't put one forward.

Firstly I have repeatedly stated that it is not feasible the technology will and does work however it is completely unfeasible. Why is the fact that I cannot offer an immediate alternative does it make this idea automatically the one to choose. There is no logic in your arguments. All our arguments (fact based I might add) are either dismissed as being "oirish" or "remnants of the dinosaurs" or "lacking in initiative" Now its "Oh it you have no other alternative lets throw billions at this because it must be the solution so" argument is equally as puerile.

Now, I do wonder why the likes of Toshiba are investing in the PSP systems. Stupid Japanese. Or maybe the Toshiba management and shareholders are all wearing green tinted glasses.

No they are not but neither are they advocating building a 4Gw (or 4,000MW) plant based on the fact that a 30MW plant works fine. Neither are the looking at it as a backup supply to wind-power to provide the entire national grid which is what Spirit of Ireland are proposing. Can you not see the difference or are those green tinted glasses making you blind.

I think you don't actually read all of any posts as you seemed to have missed or maybe you only read posts directed at you.

No I read all posts. Which makes a difference as you obviously only selectively read them. even those directed at you. Otherwise you would not keep repeatedly making the same comments even after being proven you are wrong or claiming i said things that I plainly never had.

You look to be seeing this idea as a sole source of electricity concept. I see it as part of a multiple system. Existing fossil fuel stations stay online for the moment, to be phased out as different systems* come online, the PSP acts as a strong buffer/supplier. *Wave powered generation, geothermal, etc.

That's a change because its not what spirit of Ireland are proposing. Wave power and Geothermal are years from practical application to the scale required. What you are proposing is throwing billions of Euro (I would think hundreds of Billions of Euro) at this project. Where would we get the finance to invest in anything else ?

This will take a while to come online and there is always the danger of a repeat of the 70's with fuel supplies. Remember the 70's? Queuing for fuel? Fuel rationing?

Oh I remember the 70's. But you will have us bankrupt paying for poorly researched projects with no cost analysis (capital cost is moot remember) or discussion in advance long before we run out of oil.

We are 90% dependant on outside fuel sources, if that is cut off for any reason, we lose 75%, approximately, of our power generation. Result, the country grinds to a complete halt, the economy flatlines completely and the last person leaving the country won't even have to switch off the lights.

I completely agree but blindly following a concept that you saw on a website is not the solution. There are many many people vastly more qualified than me rubbishing the claims of this group. Many people vastly more qualified than me have looked at the same data and drawn the same conclusions I have indeed much of my data has come from their work. Its freely available, even on the spirit of Ireland website where these question shave been asked and ignored.

You see I actually did a little research.

Now, that is a worst case scenario but you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I ask again, qualified electrical engineer, what is your alternative solution?

The worst case scenario is far far worse than you have projected.
I never said I was a qualified electrical engineer so why do you assume I am ?

Why do I need to propose an alternative just so you will admit that this concept as proposed is bunk ? I provided an argument, backed with facts, figures and statistics. Is that not enough ?

Or do they not trump "your so Oirish" or "remnants of the Dinosaurs" or the "no initiative" argument that you have produced ?

[myksav]

Ok, so no alternative ideas. Fine. We'll stick with what we have.
Seeing as the SOI idea will not work at all, might as well lock the thread as a waste of bandwidth. How silly of me to have an open mind to new concepts or ideas. Close-mindedness, here I come.

Sparkey. So you're just an electrician,or were, not an electrical engineer. Ok.

[sparkey321]

Ok, so no alternative ideas. Fine. We'll stick with what we have.
Seeing as the SOI idea will not work at all, might as well lock the thread as a waste of bandwidth. How silly of me to have an open mind to new concepts or ideas. Close-mindedness, here I come.

So you have no argument for actually goign ahewad with the plan then ? None ?

Sparkey. So you're just an electrician,or were, not an electrical engineer. Ok.

Never said that either did I ? In fact I said I used to work as an electrician. I believe I even said it was quite some time ago. You just keep making assumptions. However even if I was "just" an electrician as you so quaintly put it what difference would that make to the discussion ?

You have been unable to provide a single valid argument to proceed with this plan. Not one.
A number of different people both here, in the press and various other locations have pointed out the flaws in the proposal to you. Yet you continue to blindly insist that we go ahead with this project.

Who exactly is the close minded one ?

[orbit]

That is one of the reasons why the SoI proposition is nonsense. It is proposing to use pumped hydro storage in a way that nobody does currently (or plans to). It is a use of the technololgy that makes no sense (i.e. as full back-up to an unreliable supply).

Though the pumped storage idea might make sense as a supply/demand smoothing system for a predictable source like nuclear, which is what the French and Swiss are doing (presumably the Japanese as well).

[Geckko]

Though the pumped storage idea might make sense as a supply/demand smoothing system for a predictable source like nuclear, which is what the French and Swiss are doing (presumably the Japanese as well).

Errr... you mean in the way I stated explicitly in my post...???

[Jethro]

The problem with the Irish energy market is that it is excessively regulated.

If govts did not intervene in the market, over and above the pricing of externalities, the feasibilty or otherwise of S of I's proposal would be of no concern to us as we would not have to pay for it.

It would be great if our energy market was like say our restaurant market.

[wombat]

It would be great if our energy market was like say our restaurant market.

If it were we would probably use natural gas for 100% of our generating stations. The reason the ESB built Moneypoint was to diversify our fuel sources and although its our main source of CO2 we are stuck with it because we can't consider Nuclear.
SOI are trying to devise a way of making large scale windpower a practical proposition. The more I learn about the scheme, the less I believe in it but I'm not prepared to dismiss the idea until they come forward with a specific proposal. I believe its as silly to ignore windpower as it is to believe that we can cover the country with windmills and solve our electrical needs. I would like to see a proposal for 3 - 500MW before we start thinking of 4 GW