Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[sparkey321]

The question (about lining the reservoir) is not simple. It relates to complex geology, all sorts of very different sites, technological innovations, environmental regulations, expense, and so on. Not to mention the fact that there may be a strong argument for some sites not needing lining.
.

Thats the point. How can SOI claim to have defininative figures for costs when they don't allready have this information. If they do the survey and have to line the reservoir then the costs could almost double at the stroke of a pen.

If they don't have the information then the costs are guestimates. Thast fine every project starts with a guestimate but what he is asking in these guestimates assumptions had to be made was there an assumption that the valley's would have to be lined or not?
Were all the guestimated based on best case scenarior with no attempt made to even consider potential issues ?

It all goes the the credability of the costs (apparently very definative costs, developed after much research and site surveys) quoted.

To be blunt there is an overwhelming stink of bull************************.

Either they know what is required in the valley's and are bull************************ting us when they say they dont.

OR

They dont know whay will be required in the valley's and they are (and have been) bull************************ing us about the costings and the effort that has gone into developing them.

[Pat Gill]

Thats the point. How can SOI claim to have defininative figures for costs when they don't allready have this information. If they do the survey and have to line the reservoir then the costs could almost double at the stroke of a pen.

If they don't have the information then the costs are guestimates. Thast fine every project starts with a guestimate but what he is asking in these guestimates assumptions had to be made was there an assumption that the valley's would have to be lined or not?
Were all the guestimated based on best case scenarior with no attempt made to even consider potential issues ?

It all goes the the credability of the costs (apparently very definative costs, developed after much research and site surveys) quoted.

To be blunt there is an overwhelming stink of bull************************.

Either they know what is required in the valley's and are bull************************ting us when they say they dont.

OR

They dont know whay will be required in the valley's and they are (and have been) bull************************ing us about the costings and the effort that has gone into developing them.

Or perhaps it is known how much each technology will cost to implement and no decision has been made until the required geological surveys and Appropriate Assessment process is complete.

I would submit that only a fool depends on the best case scenario when making his plans.

And even if we were only dealing with freshwater the requirement for impermeability of the reservoir would be self evident.

Why so surprised?

You are not the first person to ask this simple question. In fact it has been on and off asked for two years. The response is always the same - deception, blather and cute hoorisms.

If anyone wants a good laugh, try asking Pat Gill what formal engineering/physical science qualifications he claims these days. Apparently, he's a nuclear physicist .. or electrical engineer, or something?

The inability of GIG to absorb replies alongside the habit of indulging in a little recreational ad hominem has been evident for some time.

So once more GIG, electronic engineering or something equally boring and useless, which was nevertheless enough to earn a living as a technologist for the last 25 years or so.

I agree, nowhere near your inferred Ivy League standard of education but cest la vie, life can be a bitch.

Oh and just for your information I have also been a lifelong fan of West Ham United.

And yet again, if you have a decent job offer you can have my CV.

[thevoice]

Going by figures provided last year, SOI propose a pumped-storage plant with a storage capacity of 100 GWh, operating as a 700 MW base-load power plant, and ‘associated’ with 1800 MW of wind turbines. Using this information and analysing how it would work during the month of December 2010 was interesting. Capacity factors cannot be predicted, so I have used actual wind power statistics from Eirgrid’s 15 minute figures. They claimed that 1425 MW of wind power was installed that month, so multiplying their figures by 1.26, should yield the generated wind power on the grid, if 1800 MW was installed. The only assumption that this method makes is the difference between 1425 and 1800 MW would have the same capacity factor as the current wind fleet. The pumped storage plant has an assumed operating efficiency of 80 %. The first graph below shows that even if the upper reservoir was full at the start of the month, the reservoir would run dry by the 10th day of the month.


Similarly, increasing the associated wind power installation to 2100 and 2500 MW would result in the reservoir emptying on days 11 and 14, respectively.



So why look at the month of December 2010? This was an extremely low wind-speed month in a windless year. During December 2010 the calculated capacity factor was 20.5 %, with the capacity factor for 2010 standing at 23.5 %. By comparison, the previous 5 years had an average capacity factor of 31 %. So December 2010 was an ideal month to investigate the worst case scenario for this project.

While multi-day energy storage may be useful in smoothing out wind variability in the short term, it is not a complete solution over longer periods of low wind speeds. This proposal, as currently outlined, cannot work without a third source of energy. When this proposal is combined with open cycle gas turbines, it looks like a stable generating system can be created. I’m currently working on the maths of such a system, and will post back here when it’s done. However, would the cost of such a system justify the pumped-storage element? I suppose, that is the question.

Another item to look at is the operation of a 700 MW base-load plant under the current SOI proposal. A thermal power plant ‘likes’ constant output, as it reduces wear and tear on equipment, and it operates more efficiently. I don’t understand why a power plant, as proposed by SOI, would have a constant output. It is a hugely flexible plant, and could operate under continuously variable base-load conditions. Peak to night time demand is approximately 2:1, so this plant would operate in a more useful manner by generating 700 MW at peak and 350 MW in the dead of the night. Indeed, such a plant could follow the grid much more precisely than this, by ramping up and down as required.

[Pat Gill]

thevoice,

Look forward to seeing your results, if I can be of any help let me know.

[thevoice]

thevoice,

Look forward to seeing your results, if I can be of any help let me know.

Thanks for that Pat, will get in touch if there are any questions. The thing that interest me also is using these storage reservoirs to 'soak up' excess thermal capacity at night. Also with the talk of exporting electricity to the UK, would importing their excess night-time capacity be viable? Or do the UK's own pumped-storage hydro plants already cater for this demand?

[Decadance]

Pat,

I presume this is the SoI site in the draft County Donegal Development Plan: http://www.donegalcoco.ie/NR/rdonlyr...ucture8182.pdf

Interesting to note the provenance for the material alteration!

[zavi13]

I was wondering what had happened to the 'Spirit of Ireland' initiative, I feared it might've gone the way of Amhrann Nua and Dublin's Blue Line public transport plan and other such new initiatives in the recession, can I take it they're still in the planning stage then?

[Pat Gill]

Thanks for that Pat, will get in touch if there are any questions. The thing that interest me also is using these storage reservoirs to 'soak up' excess thermal capacity at night. Also with the talk of exporting electricity to the UK, would importing their excess night-time capacity be viable? Or do the UK's own pumped-storage hydro plants already cater for this demand?

thevoice,

Allied to the work you have already done I suspect that the answers to your questions will allow you to see the magnificance of the light in all of its glory

Yes. Yes. No.

And a detailed analysis of the above might show a requirement for perhaps as many as 5 plants of this scale over the next few years.

[Pat Gill]

I was wondering what had happened to the 'Spirit of Ireland' initiative, I feared it might've gone the way of Amhrann Nua and Dublin's Blue Line public transport plan and other such new initiatives in the recession, can I take it they're still in the planning stage then?

zavi13,

The second part of this recent speech might interest you

Irish utilities face challenge of hugely expanded electricity from 2014 » Pat Rabbitte TD » The Labour Party

Its been a busy few years.

[Pat Gill]

Pat,

I presume this is the SoI site in the draft County Donegal Development Plan: http://www.donegalcoco.ie/NR/rdonlyr...ucture8182.pdf

Interesting to note the provenance for the material alteration!

Decadence,

As previously discussed, S of I don't hide stuff, the most recent open meeting on this project was two weeks ago in Kilcar, where questions were answered and those answers further discussed at all levels, as usual the meeting went on for a lot longer than scheduled.