Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[wombat]

That said in principle I think the SOI proposals are imaginative and deserve to be fully explored. In conjunction with this we need to properly and fully look at other options such as nuclear power which may achieve the same aims and represent better value. Possibly a mix of nuclear with wind and pumped hydro would be the most effective energy mix for this island.

We need to keep the SOI proposal separate from any discussion on nuclear. SOI are calling the politicians bluff - and I include all parties in this, there is as much waffle coming from FG as from the Greens on what renewables can achieve. When the Ardnacrusha scheme was proposed, it was considered madness which is why it needed state investment, the moneyed classes were not interested. I do not believe that we will become an exporter of electricity as a result of SOI's proposal but I also believe it will make a real and measurable difference to our dependence on fossil fuels. We need to encourage our politicians to stop looking for the silver bullet solution and get behind a scheme which can make a real difference.

[Dios]

As an engineer the project really appeals to me. However the economics simply don't add up and we really can't afford to pay over the odds for energy given how uncompetitive we have become.

To be honest, given that your last impressions of the state of the art in electric vehicles, to give one example, were apparently milk delivery services, I think we'd be as well off not to listen to you, since you are more or less clueless as to what you are are yammering on about.

Thanks all the same though.

[riven]

Don't forget upstream.

Average windfarm load factor is only around 25%, so to get your 1000mw average output in the first place you need 4000mw rated capacity (which is normally the figure quoted as in "build XXXMW wind generation capacity"). Note rated capacity is the theoretical output of a turbine if it was subjected to the optimum wind speed.


So to get 573 MW to consumers out of the stored hydro, you need around 4000MW in rateable wind turbine capacity.

And of course, we haven't even discussed here the lack of certainty of getting enough wind on any particular day or two to replenish the hydro store.

Even with a 100% load factor we need to produc twice as much power if we were to store it using pumped storage. Take into account load factor and welll........

[wombat]

Even with a 100% load factor we need to produc twice as much power if we were to store it using pumped storage. Take into account load factor and welll........

The purpose of the pumped storage is to store surplus energy when available. The current hope for windpower is that the interconnector will allow surplus to be exported. The problem with this is that you can't be sure there will be demand at that time, especially when you will be competing with nuclear.

[riven]

The purpose of the pumped storage is to store surplus energy when available. The current hope for windpower is that the interconnector will allow surplus to be exported. The problem with this is that you can't be sure there will be demand at that time, especially when you will be competing with nuclear.

Incorrect but your point is irrelevant anyway.

SOI suggest building 50 of these storage resevoirs whereas Ireland currently works well with one. The reason is to try an alleviate the problems with winds lack of consistent power supply. Therefore when the wind blows (usually best at night) this energy will be stored for use during the day or peak.

As is easily seen this strategy is not viable because in the best case we will loose 50% of the energy generated and probably more.

And even if the storage was only going to be used for surplus what is the point in storing if the result is to loose at least 50% of the energy?

[wombat]

As is easily seen this strategy is not viable because in the best case we will loose 50% of the energy generated and probably more.

And even if the storage was only going to be used for surplus what is the point in storing if the result is to loose at least 50% of the energy?

Because wind is unpredictable, it cannot replace thermal plants for the bulk of our power needs. If it can be combined with pumped storage plants, it can provide a greater proportion of our power as the pumped storage will be used to smooth out the troughs.
It is not a perfect solution but engineering is not about perfection, its about getting the best results from what's available, in this case wind.

[joel]

Incorrect but your point is irrelevant anyway.

SOI suggest building 50 of these storage resevoirs whereas Ireland currently works well with one. The reason is to try an alleviate the problems with winds lack of consistent power supply. Therefore when the wind blows (usually best at night) this energy will be stored for use during the day or peak.

As is easily seen this strategy is not viable because in the best case we will loose 50% of the energy generated and probably more.

And even if the storage was only going to be used for surplus what is the point in storing if the result is to loose at least 50% of the energy?

Over 50% lost? - that is cobblers. The present plant achieves about 75%.

[Quixote]

Incorrect but your point is irrelevant anyway.

SOI suggest building 50 of these storage resevoirs whereas Ireland currently works well with one. The reason is to try an alleviate the problems with winds lack of consistent power supply. Therefore when the wind blows (usually best at night) this energy will be stored for use during the day or peak.

As is easily seen this strategy is not viable because in the best case we will loose 50% of the energy generated and probably more.

And even if the storage was only going to be used for surplus what is the point in storing if the result is to loose at least 50% of the energy?

Riven

You have misunderstood the proposal from SOI. They are suggesting that they have looked at 50 potential sites but in the end only around 2-4 will be developed as pumped storage facilities.

Regarding energy loss all forms of energy creation and distribution involve a loss of energy arising from the funamental laws of physics and thermodynamics. My hunch is that the energy losses with this proposal will not be as low as you suggest. The critical point is that this proposal provides a solution to make wind power a realistic and viable power source. As a nation we simply cannot afford to import fossil fuels into the future and SOI have tabled an idea which as a society we need to urgently give the fullest attention.

[joel]

Over 50% lost? - that is cobblers. The present plant achieves about 75%.

And they are talking about TWO resevoirs, as the guy explains:

Ireland's got a powerful future - Letters, Opinion - Independent.ie

[Dios]

And even if the storage was only going to be used for surplus what is the point in storing if the result is to loose at least 50% of the energy?

Modern pumped hydro storage will do a minimum of 85%, and its not unusual for it to be upwards of 90%.