Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[droghedasouth]

Because of the high pressures involved, you probably could not use one large pipe.
There is no problem with having a number of pipes in parallel - I have seen similar set-ups in Switzerland with 3 or 4 pipes together.

As regards Turlough Hill, they put the generating plant in an underground cavern (for technical or aesthetic reasons?) which must have cost an absolute fortune relative to the cost of building a reservoir.

[mollox]

Is this scheme for real?
I heard the guys on Pat Kenny about a week ago and they said they'd had positive conversations with the Govt.
So I couldn't figure out why Eamon Ryan wasn't all over the media like a rash to claim credit and promise millions of jobs - as he usually does when he thinks of some new blueskies scheme.

Then on Newstalk(?) within the past 48 hours, I heard Gormless say that they would be looking into it - but clearly had done SFA about following it up. He said Ciaran Cuffe had spoken to one of the promoters, and that Eamon Ryan would meet with them - but clearly nothing definite had been planned.

This whole proposal is so far up the Green Party agenda that you have to ask
(a) why the promoters haven't been actively engaged with Green mininsters long before now
and
(b) why the Green Ministers haven't been proactive in following up on the proposal.

So is it for real or just a publicity stunt/joke?

Anyone hear Eamon Ryan on Pat Kenny today?
When asked about this project it was clear that he hasn't any real knowledge about it or engagement with it.
He talked about having to upgrade the national grid before you can exploit major generation initiatives.
As Kenny pointed out, you must surely be doing these things in parallel - not waiting till you've got the grid right and then turning your attention to how you'll generate power.

So - back to my original question: Is SpiritofIreland real of a spoof? Why are the Greens so reluctant to even discuss the proposal?

[riven]

Can you clarify why this is case?

Basis 1000 MW generated at wind farm.

This is transmitted to the storage area. Average loss in transmission is 9% so we now have 910MW.
The pumps use energy to pump the water up and down the hill. Accirding to your wiki (lets keep it simple) 70-85% of the energy can be reclaimed. Knowing that pump efficiency for these sizes is at best 80% we go with the more reasonable 70% efficiency. So we now have 637 MW.
Turbine efficiency is in the region of 90%. That leaves 573.3MW recovered to be sent back to the grid at a further 9% loss.

I have not taken into account evaporation, pump head loss due to friction and maintenance.

[briarz]

hmmm...For those The Simpsons afficiondos on here I have one word that always seems to ring true when presented with this type of opportunity - MONORAIL.

Perhaps they should rename the website Spiritofspringfield.org

I reckon they were rubbing their hands with glee when they came across our humble, trusting little island, Mayor Cowen and Krusty the Tanaiste.

Snake oil salesmen indeed.

[Geckko]

Basis 1000 MW generated at wind farm.

This is transmitted to the storage area. Average loss in transmission is 9% so we now have 910MW.
The pumps use energy to pump the water up and down the hill. Accirding to your wiki (lets keep it simple) 70-85% of the energy can be reclaimed. Knowing that pump efficiency for these sizes is at best 80% we go with the more reasonable 70% efficiency. So we now have 637 MW.
Turbine efficiency is in the region of 90%. That leaves 573.3MW recovered to be sent back to the grid at a further 9% loss.

I have not taken into account evaporation, pump head loss due to friction and maintenance.

Don't forget upstream.

Average windfarm load factor is only around 25%, so to get your 1000mw average output in the first place you need 4000mw rated capacity (which is normally the figure quoted as in "build XXXMW wind generation capacity"). Note rated capacity is the theoretical output of a turbine if it was subjected to the optimum wind speed.


So to get 573 MW to consumers out of the stored hydro, you need around 4000MW in rateable wind turbine capacity.

And of course, we haven't even discussed here the lack of certainty of getting enough wind on any particular day or two to replenish the hydro store.

[Just Us]

Besides wind, wave or solar*, what other power source is actually free? Wind blows, waves go up and down, sun shines, regardles of whether we harness it or not. All other "fuels" cost to buy and transport to the station.

Tidal & geothermal should also be included [they are usually more predictable & more reliable than wind, wave or solar]. Clever energy management [eg over-heating or over-cooling premises at off-peak at very low rates; then only a top-up needed at hi-rate] should be used to reduce storage needs [but they would still be huge - research on batteries, flywheels, hydrolysis, etc badly needed].

Anyway, our €billions should go into this rather that setting up even more bad banks.

[Christel]

I'm pretty confused. There's a free Cavan paper called Cavan Echo. It has an article with headline:

Cavan can be wind energy giant, says new action group.

"...That's according to the Spirit of Ireland group which launched this week."

"The group believe that existing wind farm developments in Co. Cavan will also form part of the plan."

I didn't know of glacial valleys near sea in Co. Cavan.

???

[wombat]

So to get 573 MW to consumers out of the stored hydro, you need around 4000MW in rateable wind turbine capacity.
.

The idea behind the pumped storage is to store the surplus wind generated electricity until it is needed. The problem with wind is it does not blow when it is needed and when it blows it may or may not be needed. The use of pumped storage is an attempt to allow the large scale development of windpower without the need for thermal back up. This is a serious attempt to apply existing engineering knowledge to overcome a major problem with wind energy.

[Quixote]

[QUOTE So - back to my original question: Is SpiritofIreland real of a spoof? Why are the Greens so reluctant to even discuss the proposal?[/QUOTE]

I think the problem for the Greens is that this whole debate exposes fundamental issues regarding renewable power that they do not want to deal with. Constant PR Spin that we are on the way to being a major exporter of renewable power does not wash the reality that to get anywhere near the 50%+ of power is going to be a massive and costly project.

To date wind power has had a free and uncritical ride in all senses. The SOI debate has exposed this and raises fundamental questions.

That said in principle I think the SOI proposals are imaginative and deserve to be fully explored. In conjunction with this we need to properly and fully look at other options such as nuclear power which may achieve the same aims and represent better value. Possibly a mix of nuclear with wind and pumped hydro would be the most effective energy mix for this island.

[fiannafailure]

this is an extract from the community involvement forum on the spiritofireland website, this is not simply about electricity production, would there be any dispute at corrib, if the local people had a say in the route and were given the opportunity to get some of the profits of the pipeline. this is a bigger idea than most people realise. "I believe that this is one of those rare occasions in a nations history, that we are given an opportunity to re-invent who and what we are and how we conduct our lives. Igor, Graham and the team are to be applauded for taking this approach to their project. The basic idea of using the sea as the lower reservoir of a pumped storage unit is not new, I remember talking about this idea over 20 years ago. BUT THEY DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT, and now we can too. As I see it, this project breaks down into a into a number of components, Energy production, Energy storage, Energy distribution. These components in their turn all need design, manufacture, construction, operation and servicing. That's a lot of work/employment/ownership and we as individuals or communities HAVE NOW BEEN GIVEN the opportunity of being part of this project as opposed to having it imposed on us, it can often take 10 mins for the traffic to allow me out of my driveway in the morning, but I would not feel so imposed upon, in fact it might cheer me up every morning, if I was receiving part of my income from a toll on that road. This project can/will be completed using off the shelf technology, the question is will it be completed using off the shelf ownership. Ponder this, a Co-Op of 1000 people investing 30 euros a week for 2 years would have the capitol to build a 2 turbine 6MW windfarm and by so doing would create or help sustain upwards of 200 jobs and the return on their investment?. Income, Pride, Self belief, and not a multinational in sight. We have had the industrial revolution, the post industrial revolution, the IT revolution and this maybe is the start of the sustainability revolution. I challenge as many people as possible to take this debate out of the chat rooms and forums, and into their communities, repay Igor and Graham's generosity of ideals and lets find out if we can be the Spirit of Ireland"