Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[myksav]

myksav, if it's only at a development stage then why role it out on such a grand scale??? When these forms of technologies can provide cheap energy on the large scale then that is the time to invest heavily. At the moment the electricity they produce is more expensive than fossil fuel plants. When the economics add up then I'm all in favour. I have no ideological leaning towards any form of energy production apart from that which produces the cheapest available power. Remember that domestic and business consumers will have to pay for this electricity and we cannot afford to burden the economy with more expensive power arising from an ill-conceived project such as this.

If which is only in development stage? The wind turbines or the pumped storage system?
Pumped storage does work, all the sub-systems are proven tech.

Wind turbines work now but can be made more efficient, hence the development curve comment.

Besides wind, wave or solar*, what other power source is actually free? Wind blows, waves go up and down, sun shines, regardles of whether we harness it or not. All other "fuels" cost to buy and transport to the station.

When these forms of technologies can provide cheap energy on the large scale then that is the time to invest heavily.

If everyone held to that philosophy, no advancement of technology would take place.

we cannot afford to burden the economy with more expensive power arising from an ill-conceived project such as this

Explain why you think this is an ill-conceived project. Or post a link to where you have already explained this. Maybe I missed your post that did explain but I haven't seen anything from you but 'it's an ill-conceived project'.

[myksav]

DS, just to put this into perspective. Turlough Hill can generate 292MW when the flow is let down from the upper lake. It can maintain this output for about 5 hours before the upper lake is empty. For Turlough Hill that's fine as it is only designed to smooth off variation between supply and demand. However if we're talking about using PSH as a means of large scale energy storage then the upper lack needs to be far bigger (hence the proposal in this case to dam entire valleys).

The capital cost of building Turlough Hill today would be in and around the €1bn mark. And that gives only 292MW for 5 hours. I'm not saying the magnitude of the facility and the capital costs have a linear relationship but we're are talking huge sums. Also, how far is Glencolmcille from Dublin? Remember that's where the power is needed most so now we would also have to invest in transmission to get it there.

As an engineer the project really appeals to me. However the economics simply don't add up and we really can't afford to pay over the odds for energy given how uncompetitive we have become.

As you state you are an engineer, you should know that Turlough Hill required digging the upper lough, that would put any such project into unviability in the present.
SOI plans to use existing geological features to provide the resevoirs cutting cost greatly.
Others have pointed out the distance hooha. Heck, there are plans for interconnectors from France to Ireland.

[Christel]

[QUOTE=myksav;1654523] How much land area is technically unusable, for housing or farming? I've seen these glacial valleys and they aren't what could be called high value land. Unless you know how to farm on a 70 degree slope of rock.

Ever heard of biodiversity, rare habitats and species?


My only quibble with SOI is that they aren't thinking big enough. They have identified 50 sites suitable for this system with a plan to set up two stations. I'd go for more sites, 5 to start with and going up to maybe 20 overall.

QUOTE]

Why are run of the mill projects so popular in this country? Plant windmills on preferably every mountain, roads and by -passes from and around every village, one off housing on every field, and stereotpe housing estates around every town and village.
See what the result was?

[wombat]

As you state you are an engineer, you should know that Turlough Hill required digging the upper lough, that would put any such project into unviability in the present.
SOI plans to use existing geological features to provide the resevoirs cutting cost greatly.
Others have pointed out the distance hooha. Heck, there are plans for interconnectors from France to Ireland.

I believe the main technical problem with Turlough Hill was in the tunneling, the SOI proposal seems to be proposing to avoid this - the details were pretty sketchy last time I looked. Regarding the interconnector from Wales - it will be undersea, there are problems with every proposal for overhead power lines in any part of the country. This is a practicable proposal and may make economic sense when it is developed further, it deserves careful consideration.

[myksav]

[quote=Christel;1656575]

How much land area is technically unusable, for housing or farming? I've seen these glacial valleys and they aren't what could be called high value land. Unless you know how to farm on a 70 degree slope of rock.

1. Ever heard of biodiversity, rare habitats and species?


My only quibble with SOI is that they aren't thinking big enough. They have identified 50 sites suitable for this system with a plan to set up two stations. I'd go for more sites, 5 to start with and going up to maybe 20 overall.

QUOTE]

2. Why are run of the mill projects so popular in this country? Plant windmills on preferably every mountain, roads and by -passes from and around every village, one off housing on every field, and stereotpe housing estates around every town and village.
See what the result was?

1. Yes, I've heard of those things. Your point? Are there wildly endangered species that exist nowhere else on the planet in every one of the potential sites for this plan? A rare snail or slug?

2. Oh dear, we must drop the SOI plan like it has the plague. You're putting up strawman points.
Have you ever seen one of those glacial valleys? The surrounding areas? Basically unused space.

[myksav]

Quote:
Originally Posted by myksav
As you state you are an engineer, you should know that Turlough Hill required digging the upper lough, that would put any such project into unviability in the present.
SOI plans to use existing geological features to provide the resevoirs cutting cost greatly.
Others have pointed out the distance hooha. Heck, there are plans for interconnectors from France to Ireland

I believe the main technical problem with Turlough Hill was in the tunneling, the SOI proposal seems to be proposing to avoid this - the details were pretty sketchy last time I looked. Regarding the interconnector from Wales - it will be undersea, there are problems with every proposal for overhead power lines in any part of the country. This is a practicable proposal and may make economic sense when it is developed further, it deserves careful consideration.

My mention of the interconector was in response to the mention of distance being too great from the west to east coast by another poster.

You don't have to tunnel with a built resevoir, the feed pipes can be overground from the resevoir to the generators.

[wombat]

[quote=myksav;1657792]

1. Yes, I've heard of those things. Your point? Are there wildly endangered species that exist nowhere else on the planet in every one of the potential sites for this plan? A rare snail or slug?

I think I hear the next protest gathering. By the time anything starts to happen, Corrib will be operational, where will the protesters go then? At least SOI is talking about the West, so they won't have far to move.

[wombat]

My mention of the interconector was in response to the mention of distance being too great from the west to east coast by another poster.

You don't have to tunnel with a built resevoir, the feed pipes can be overground from the resevoir to the generators.

I got your point about the interconnector but I was thinking of the problems with the HV lines from the north and across Cork harbour.
The idea of using pipe rather than tunneling implies a smaller station than Turlough Hill as tunneling gets cheaper than pipe in larger sizes. I'm not sure what the largest standard pipe that can be supplied by a mill but I think its about 2m dia.

[myksav]

I got your point about the interconnector but I was thinking of the problems with the HV lines from the north and across Cork harbour.
The idea of using pipe rather than tunneling implies a smaller station than Turlough Hill as tunneling gets cheaper than pipe in larger sizes. I'm not sure what the largest standard pipe that can be supplied by a mill but I think its about 2m dia.

Are you talk about the upflow to the resevoir or the output from the resevoir? Or the manufacturing limits of the pipes?

edit. Back later, got a call-out.

[wombat]

Are you talk about the upflow to the resevoir or the output from the resevoir? Or the manufacturing limits of the pipes?

edit. Back later, got a call-out.

Manufacturing limits from mills - you can make pipes any size by rolling & welding plates as in tank building but it gets expensive. As you know, the devil is in the detail when you try to implement an idea.