Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[fiannafailure]

Long article in the New Yorker on China's investment in renewables.



China’s 863 Program, a crash program for clean energy : The New Yorker

Cheaper source for wind turbines?

Possibly, that is most certainly a probable source of investment, as usual one must weigh the word cheap very accurately

[fiannafailure]

Sparkey will be interested in this story.

Germany's BSW warns against double-digit FIT cut | Markets | Reuters

[Heorditas]

But it doesn't sound like a great deal for the consumer, who's going to be charged on the basis of the least efficient generator in the pool.

Not necessarily.
Larger users can negotiate their energy costs based on the cost of generation, not the pool price. They enter into CFDs

[fiannafailure]

Not necessarily.
Larger users can negotiate their energy costs based on the cost of generation, not the pool price. They enter into CFDs

Heorditas

Ah, the black magic of a contract for difference, the basic premise of a CFD is that there is a winner and a loser, although sometimes there is a draw, over time though there is always a loser and sometimes the loser does not even know they are playing the game.

Care to explain how a contract for difference can operate in the Irish electricity market.

[fiannafailure]

A lot of people wonder about the possibility of raising the funds necessary to build a project of the size proposed by Spirit of Ireland, phase 1 will cost €3.5 billion.

Here is a hint

Top investors from the Middle East region are looking for big opportunities in Germany's large-scale, sustainable industries, including its renewable energy sector, said a top German trade official.

Trade Arabia - Middle East & GCC Business Information | Trade News Portal

note the terms, large scale, sustainable long term industries, energy export.

[orbit]

Heorditas

Ah, the black magic of a contract for difference, the basic premise of a CFD is that there is a winner and a loser, although sometimes there is a draw, over time though there is always a loser and sometimes the loser does not even know they are playing the game.

Care to explain how a contract for difference can operate in the Irish electricity market.

Yeah. I don't see how CFDs would work as a way for electricity consumers to deal directly with suppliers (that's not to say there aren't other ways). CFDs are just a way to speculate on the future price of a commodity.

[fiannafailure]

Yeah. I don't see how CFDs would work as a way for electricity consumers to deal directly with suppliers (that's not to say there aren't other ways). CFDs are just a way to speculate on the future price of a commodity.

orbit

You are correct in your assertion, although some very exotic CFD type instruments are used in Ireland, only very large consumers could possibly derive any benefits, and the losers are ? every other consumer.

In the UK market with very different market rules, it is possible for a consumer to contract with a generator for supply of a definite quantity of electricity to be delivered at a certain time, and those contracts very definitely display CFD type terms, for example which party holds the can if the consumer cannot take delivery at the specified time, or conversely the generator cannot deliver, or the price of fuel is drastically changed, or etc etc ad finitum, these contracts can be very complex and can have a very real effect on the price.

We do not have the market mechanisms available for this, adequacy of supply is king.

[Civic_critic2]

I am not arguing with you on this (I don't know enough about the technology) but pricing strikes me as an issue.

1,000 per watt is 1,000,000 per KW or 1,000,000,000 (or 1 billion) per MW or 1,000,000,000,000 (1 trillion)per GW.

Prices would have to drop to a fraction of 1% of current prices to come even close to the cost of wind. Additionally would it not require high levels of transformation (with associated losses) to be of any use.

Also the 30% efficiency can you quantify exactly on how this is measured ? Is it site dependant ? If so what site generated 30% and what would the expected figures be like for Ireland ?

Not sure where you're getting 1000 per watt from - you mean 1000 euros per watt? A number of thin film solar manufacturers are producing panels at around $0.85 per watt and one company has announced it can produce for $0.50 a watt and will be selling their panels at $1 a watt within a year.

I usually think of these things in square metres - a 1 square metre panel costs anywhere from $150 to $500 or more depending on where you get them. This will be rated at around 160 watts. The retail price of solar PV is now between 3 and 4 dollars a watt, thin film PV is cheaper at around $1.70, soon to be $1. Wholesale price or buying the cells themselves directly from the manufacturers to construct your own panel is cheaper again.

On the ground at the equator a 1 square metre panel will, in ideal conditions, receive 1000 watts and will generally be rated at 160-180 watts, reflecting its 16%-18% efficiency.. In Ireland the average over the course of a year is 250 watts per square metre. Still plenty of energy - 250MW per square kilometre.

[wombat]

On the ground at the equator a 1 square metre panel will, in ideal conditions, receive 1000 watts and will generally be rated at 160-180 watts, reflecting its 16%-18% efficiency.. In Ireland the average over the course of a year is 250 watts per square metre. Still plenty of energy - 250MW per square kilometre.

If we are seriously thinking of large scale electricity generation from renewables, we should select technologies that make best use of the resources available, in our case, wind.Having spent Christmas in Australia, I am very sceptical about using solar power on a large scale in Ireland. Perhaps in the future, it will become very cheap and when you consider the California climate, there is no doubt that it will attract a lot of investment but until then, we should concentrate our efforts on getting a short term answer to our energy problem. I see SoI as a plan to do so, it may or may not succeed on the scale they envisage but it is an idea worth persuing.

[Civic_critic2]

It's like banging my head against a brick wall. I've laid out the economics, I've laid out the physics, I've laid out the available resource in Ireland.

If the Irish really want to be at the cutting edge then here it is. But the Irish idea of the cutting edge is to arrive 10 years later than everyone else - like say Denmark - and then try to copy them when it seems safe and congratulate themselves on their grand imaginations. The Danes are already making their money because they battered on ahead more than a decade ago.

Reminds me of the boardwalk down the side of the Liffey. When it was opened it was launched with a flourish of aldermanly mutual self-congratulaion as if it was the greatest act of engineering since the Fourth Bridge.
I remember once being beside a canal in Amsterdam where a couple of hundred metres of roadworks were going on. The Dutch answer to this block to their traffic flow was to build a temporary structure out along the side of the wall of the canal and over the water which was capable of taking cars and trucks. When the roadworks were to finish after a couple of months they would take it down and carry on as before.

Still I know of at least one team in Kevin Street working at the cutting edge of solar, so there's something.