Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

[orbit]

Its a well proven technique in mines where tailings ponds are lined to prevent ground contamination, its expensive - any civil engineers out there who can elaborate?

True. Though I imagine tailings ponds are smaller and more "engineered". But, it's just a question of cost. and maybe this comparison would be a useful benchmark.

[fiannafailure]

True. Though I imagine tailings ponds are smaller and more "engineered". But, it's just a question of cost. and maybe this comparison would be a useful benchmark.

orbit
Some people question our environmental concience, believe me that if we didn't believe that the balance is very positive, we would not be promoting this concept. We are prepared to spend a minimum of €50 million euro to line our reservoirs, I think that is commitment to a sensitivity.

[eyeSpy]

people argue that 40% wind is not feasible on a small isolated synchronous system.
well we've had over 40% wind generation online for a period in the past month and nothing happened.
and Spain had over 50% wind last week.

[fiannafailure]

people argue that 40% wind is not feasible on a small isolated synchronous system.
well we've had over 40% wind generation online for a period in the past month and nothing happened.
and Spain had over 50% wind last week.

eyeSpy,

Spain had over 50% wind last week

A few years ago Spain had a sustained period of renewable energy on their grid and everything was fine until there was a sudden small surge in demand, simultaneously an intermittancy event of 8 minutes duration occured, gas turbine spinning reserve did not compensate fast enough, under frequency and over current trips activated throughout the grid in order to protect utility and customer equipment from damage, and within minutes the outages had spread to three other countries. It took over 4 hours to rebuild 80% of the grid and some parts did not recover for 12 hours. Millions of euros were lost that day and 27 people died as a result of various ancillary events.
Within days the Spanish utilities had decided to build a lot more hydro capacity, pumped and conventional. Hydro spinning reserve can ramp from 0 to 100% output in seconds.

This is a very serious subject.

[eyeSpy]

eyeSpy,



A few years ago Spain had a sustained period of renewable energy on their grid and everything was fine until there was a sudden small surge in demand, simultaneously an intermittancy event of 8 minutes duration occured, gas turbine spinning reserve did not compensate fast enough, under frequency and over current trips activated throughout the grid in order to protect utility and customer equipment from damage, and within minutes the outages had spread to three other countries. It took over 4 hours to rebuild 80% of the grid and some parts did not recover for 12 hours. Millions of euros were lost that day and 27 people died as a result of various ancillary events.
Within days the Spanish utilities had decided to build a lot more hydro capacity, pumped and conventional. Hydro spinning reserve can ramp from 0 to 100% output in seconds.

This is a very serious subject.

it is very serious. grid management has moved on since the Spanish incident you cite.
storage is a big part of that.
nonetheless we have had 40% for period without any bother (touch wood) and with the units we have.
I know you are looking at managing higher penetrations.

[deiseguy]

Grattan asked about my (admittedly uncosted) idea of using desalinated sea-water in the upper lake. A dam wouldn't be needed in the sea portion. Say the site was located at a natural bay with a relatively narrow inlet, the desalinated water could be kept separate from the ocean by running some kind of movable or flexible membrane across the bay. The membrane would have to be able to move a certain distance to allow for tidal movements. But its only function is to keep the two bodies of water separate. It wouldn't need to be particularly strong and presumably could tolerate a certain level of leakage as well. Using desalinated water could avoid the need to line the upper reservoir, and all the attendant risks associated with the lining rupturing,

The idea might be totally pie in the sky, but it's worth at least considering, if someone hasn't already (IMO).

No its not worth considering. Its beyond idiotic

[orbit]

No its not worth considering. Its beyond idiotic

Lots of small minded people saying the same about Spirit of Ireland.

[deiseguy]

The spirit of Ireland plan is workable because of its simplicity. One reservoir constructed from the canal leading from it to the sea. The other reservoir being the second biggest on the planet the Atlanatic ocean. No new or untried technology anywhere in the project. Everything needed for it can be bought off the shelf. And would people please stop banging on about the reservoir linings, there is no-one on this thread who is not living within ten miles of a major contamination source which is only being contained by one of these lining systems. The only problem with SOI is that they are not thinking big enough.Peak oil is coming regardless of any problem with CO2 and greenhouse gases. Every KW currently used for heat and power which is obtained from oil or gas will have to be replaced with electricity, not this year or next year but within the forseeable future. One thing I am fairly confident of is that there will be a new record price for a barrel of oil within 2 years and $200/barrel will be normal in five to ten years. Start to cost your projects on this basis maybe but certainly don't make any assumptions based on $60-$70/barrel

[orbit]

The spirit of Ireland plan is workable because of its simplicity. One reservoir constructed from the canal leading from it to the sea. The other reservoir being the second biggest on the planet the Atlanatic ocean. No new or untried technology anywhere in the project. Everything needed for it can be bought off the shelf. And would people please stop banging on about the reservoir linings, there is no-one on this thread who is not living within ten miles of a major contamination source which is only being contained by one of these lining systems. The only problem with SOI is that they are not thinking big enough.Peak oil is coming regardless of any problem with CO2 and greenhouse gases. Every KW currently used for heat and power which is obtained from oil or gas will have to be replaced with electricity, not this year or next year but within the forseeable future. One thing I am fairly confident of is that there will be a new record price for a barrel of oil within 2 years and $200/barrel will be normal in five to ten years. Start to cost your projects on this basis maybe but certainly don't make any assumptions based on $60-$70/barrel

Every aspect of an engineering solution needs to be benchmarked against alternatives, even on the back of an envelope (maybe proving the alternative infeasible).

While I agree with you, that SOI is relatively simple technically, it's impossible to evaluate the environmental impacts, without knowing the location, the exact scale etc.

It's one thing to cover vast unpopulated areas of Spain with wind turbines, but it is totally different in more sensitive landscapes like the West of Ireland. That's why most people (like me anyway) need a lot more details. We aren't going to be brow-beaten by gung ho advocates. And we're going to want to see realistic (ie. open minded, non ideological) comparisons with alternatives like nuclear, before we make up our mind.

[Niceguyeddie]

I thought everyone was promised a more detailed update at the end of September from SOI. I haven't received it yet. Pat, have I missed a newsletter and, if so, can you link please?