Potential for pumped-storage hydro power in Donegal?

[DaveM]

Basically applying celtic tiger era building costs to a post-CT era.

We no longer have the conditions to maintain an overpriced nation, costs are going to be falling for the next few years.

I'm not applying celtic tiger costs to anything. I work in the construction of utilities and I know what costs are like right now and have a fair idea of where they're going to go.

Tender prices are already down about 20%. That's a seismic drop and there isn't a whole lot of scope to go lower. I would however expect static prices with little or no inflation for the next few years.

The civil construction market is at saturation point. Rather than seeing significant further drops in prices what is more likely is that contractors will start to go to the wall as they simply can't make a profit. Significant drops in labour costs have already been factored into prices and margins are practically non-existant. In addition there is already considerable existing competition in the Irish market from other EU contractors so it's not as if an influx our foreign companies to going to drive prices down further.

The other issue relating to construction costs is that the cost of materials is not something that is driven by the Irish market alone. The price we pay for fuel, steel, copper, etc. is driven by the international market. Commodity and fuel prices are not going to be depressed for long. Also, the production of cement is a huge producer of CO2 - about 800kg of CO2 per tonne of cement manufactured. The imposition of carbon taxes will drive these costs up also.

The idea that construction costs are going to continue to drop indefinitely is completely misguided.

Also, simple improvements in tech and building techniques.

Such as???

The world's largest such system, at 2.1 gigawatts, cost €3 billion in today's money 24 years ago.

We wouldn't be building that big in any one spot, so we would spend proportionately less. Not to mention the fact that we would still have cheap Polish high quality labour doing much of the work for us, while the Americans had to do it all with well-paid highly-unionised Teamsters.

Again you're over simplifying this and missing the point. The PSH plants built in the past were for the purpose of addressing variation in demand. That is completely different from using them as storage facilities due to variation in supply. In the latter case the quantity of energy that can stored is of far greater important. The output power rating alone is irrelevant. The question is how long this output can be maintained for. If you take Turlough Hill as an example, in order to use this for large scale storage the artificial lake would have to be much larger. This would drive up the construction costs enormously and would also be hugely dependent on geotechnical considerations as the magnitude of excavation works rise. When the lake is filled the battery is full. When the lake is empty the battery is drained. For the application you're talking about the size of battery is critical. PSH plants designed for demand variation simply don't have the energy storage capacity for what you're talking about. Therefore it is not possible to simply scale the price against the MW rating.

As for cheap Polish labour a lot of them have gone home! Also, if this is a public works contract then the contractor is contractually bound to ensure that all workers on the site get paid the rates included in the relevant collective wage agreement, e.g. you pay workers whatever is included in the latest social partnership agreement.

But the real point is: the world's largest pumped storage system costs the same as a few hundred miles of motorway. It's a question of priorities.

No, that's not the point. The capital outlay must be justified on the basis that the power produced will be at a price the market is willing to pay. We've wasted enough capital in this country and projects must be justified on the basis of cost-benefit analysis, not wooly comparisons with unrelated issues.

That said, how much do you think a 500MW station would get for its power, running for the top three peak hours every day on the market, yearly? Averaged out over a long term.

It would simply never be built on the basis so it's not a relevant consideration.

[DaveM]

Dave

The issue is that without some form of pumped storage it is not possible to economically modulate the remaining electricity generation systems and make proper and economic use of a variable renewable source of energy. The aim should not be to store several days worth of power in pumped storage but just enough so the fossil fuel based generating plant can come on and off in an efficient manner.

I do agree with you that pumped storage is expensive but without it the aim to go to 20-40% of renewable based electricity generation is just not going to happen. What also needs to be be factored in is the need to completely overhaul the national grid to take account of wind generation being on the whole located away from the current primary power generation plants. We as a society need to face this challenge and the costs that will be incurred rather than blandly accepting the governments PR spin that we are heading in the right direction in terms of energy security and reducing our carbon emissions. My feat at the moment is that we do not have a government that really understands what is required.

Quixote, It's telling to look at what the likes of Eddie O'Connor (a guy who is putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to renewables) is advocating. For the likes of him substantial interconnection with the UK and mainland Europe is the answer, not large scale PSH facilties.

We have the potential for generating a lot of renewable power, proportionately much more than other European countries. The variability in the supply of this power is high when set against the modest size of the Irish grid. It's much smaller when you set it against the size of the European grid as a whole. Investing in sufficient interconnection with our neighbours would seem to be a much more sensible to me.

[feargach]

As you say, they were built in the past for demand reasons.

They are currently being used in Sweden to store energy generated from wind in Denmark.

So I ask again, what is the going rate for 500MW hours at peak times? Multiply that annual price by 30 years and you can work out the money you can raise to make it.

[orbit]

They are currently being used in Sweden to store energy generated from wind in Denmark.

Have you a link for this?

[HanleyS]

Quixote, It's telling to look at what the likes of Eddie O'Connor (a guy who is putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to renewables) is advocating. For the likes of him substantial interconnection with the UK and mainland Europe is the answer, not large scale PSH facilties.

Eddie O'Connor would say that, without interconnection he has no access to the Irish market. I'm not saying interconnection isn't a better solution.

[birthday]

What is the Power loss on Irish sea interconnectors?

I do not believe that can we possibly reach government targets on renewables.
It sounds like ESB and Minister Ryan need to go back to Leaving cert physics.
On some calm days our current installed wind capacity of close to 1000MW generates as little as 20MW. The calm conditions can last for days before even light winds return. Our peak demand can be c5,500MW.
Please tell me how we can meet 20% our even close to this even if we dramatically increase wind turbines?
As for electric cars don't get me started... It really shows how bad the understanding of basic physics and chemistry is in Ireland. Maybe Ryan and the ESB are secretley building a series of nuclear power stations!!!

[orbit]

Eddie O'Connor would say that, without interconnection he has no access to the Irish market. I'm not saying interconnection isn't a better solution.

Here is an example of an interconnection link which carries 3100MW (not that far from our mean demand) over 800 miles.

The ESB CEO suggested the other day (maybe some thought he was joking) that they might build a nuclear power plant in Wales. An interconnection like this, could be used to transmit the power back here, and (who knows) maybe to export renewable power in the future.

[riven]

Yes we ALL know it is an energy storage device, not a generator. You had no reason to point that out.

The fact is that we could readily produce immense amounts of electricity off Donegal through wind turbines.

Luxembourg's one mega-facility at Vianden, for example, outputs over 1,000 MW.

One facility. Over 1000MW.

Several similar facilities?

So what is the point in building one. To store the 300 MW of energy we use 300MW. Our peak demanid is within our capabilities so we so usae the 300MW rather than reducing the output to 0 MW.

To store 1000MW you generate 1000MW at the power station and then have to use 1000MW to pump the water up the hill.

[HanleyS]

Here is an example of an interconnection link which carries 3100MW (not that far from our mean demand) over 800 miles.

As I said in my post, that was not the point of my post. Eddie O'Connor has no interest in generation activity in the Irish market. Without interconnection he has no market in Ireland, so he's hardly the person to go to for an objective opinion.

[DaveM]

As I said in my post, that was not the point of my post. Eddie O'Connor has no interest in generation activity in the Irish market. Without interconnection he has no market in Ireland, so he's hardly the person to go to for an objective opinion.

What makes you think that???