Potential for pumped-storage hydro power in Donegal?

[feargach]

feargach, the capital expenditure required to construct another facility like Turlough Hill would be enormous. If this is to be done so as to facilitate the generation of renewable energy on a much larger scale then this capital expenditure would have to be factored into the cost of the electricity generated through depreciation of the asset. As such the cost of the electricity generated would be far higher than the market is willing to pay. To sell it to the UK or others we would have to subsidise the cost - it just doesn't make sense. At a time when capital for infrastucture spending is so scarce this would be a huge waste of money.

Capital expenditure costs for construction are finally falling all over the 1st world.

The fundamental issue is: is Ireland forever incapable of getting good VFM from construction projects? i think we can probably fix our excessive costs problem, you don't .

[DaveM]

Capital expenditure costs for construction are finally falling all over the 1st world.

The fundamental issue is: is Ireland forever incapable of getting good VFM from construction projects? i think we can probably fix our excessive costs problem, you don't .

I'm sure we could build a Turlough Hill plant as efficiently as anyone else. Cost control in infrastructure projects has improved hugely in recent years and the likes of ESBI have a track record of delivering successful commercial projects in the international marketplace. My point is that the benefit would simply not justify the cost. If Turlough Hill were to be built today the cost would be enormous, i.e. we're talking in billions not millions. The benefits to the consumer and the state simply would not justify that kind of expenditure.

[wombat]

If Turlough Hill were to be built today the cost would be enormous, i.e. we're talking in billions not millions. The benefits to the consumer and the state simply would not justify that kind of expenditure.

I doubt it would cost billions, its a relatively simple plant, the earthmoving and tunneling would be the biggest part of the construction costs. Remember, it was built at a time when every state construction project was referred to as "Treasure Island" so extending original cost to current value is not valid. Another Turlough Hill should be seen as providing security of supply - if we are going down the renewable route, we need some way of smoothing the peaks and troughs and pumped storage is a good way of doing so - if we have a suitable site.

[DaveM]

I doubt it would cost billions, its a relatively simple plant, the earthmoving and tunneling would be the biggest part of the construction costs. Remember, it was built at a time when every state construction project was referred to as "Treasure Island" so extending original cost to current value is not valid. Another Turlough Hill should be seen as providing security of supply - if we are going down the renewable route, we need some way of smoothing the peaks and troughs and pumped storage is a good way of doing so - if we have a suitable site.

wombat, I'm not sure if you fully appreciate the scale of the Turlough Hill project. The earthworks and tunnelling alone would cost hundreds of millions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Treasure Island", but if we are to compare current day cost with the original cost it would be necessary to factor in issues such as health and safety. The number of fatalities that occured on the original project would be unthinkable today. Applying accepted health and safety practices to this project would add considerably to the cost. There was a workforce of hundreds camping in the valley during the construction - you think that would be permitted to happen today?!! Then there is planning. There would be massive resistance today from environmentalists to such a project due to the kind of locations you would be looking at. Planning would take years and would be very costly. That simply wasn't an issue in the 1960's.

Building another Turlough Hill makes no economic sense and it is simply not required. It's telling that not even developers in the renewable sector are looking for something like this. Companies like Mainstream are instead lobbying for substantial interconnection infrastructure with the UK and the continent.

[HanleyS]

We will need these plants at some point in the future. Why not build them now?

[thevoice]

As we add more variable renewable power to the Irish grid, pumped storage hydro looks inevitable. The fact is PSH will add to the cost of renewable electricity, but for small renewable companies, the large capital cost and long payback times makes it an unattractive investment. How long can we just keep building wind farms (and someday wave farms) and connect them to the grid, without storage?

PSH is between 70-85% efficient. Ireland has an ideal climate to reach the upper efficiency; less water evaporation than warmer countries, and lots of rain falling on the upper resevoir. 35 years later and Turlough Hill is still going, so something like this needs to be seen as a long term investment, that will be profitable.

[DaveM]

something like this needs to be seen as a long term investment, that will be profitable.

Something like this needs to be economically justified by a cost-benefit analysis. "Seeing it as profitable" is not the same as it actually being profitable.

[HanleyS]

PSH is between 70-85% efficient. Ireland has an ideal climate to reach the upper efficiency; less water evaporation than warmer countries, and lots of rain falling on the upper resevoir. 35 years later and Turlough Hill is still going, so something like this needs to be seen as a long term investment, that will be profitable.

With the rising cost of energy I don't think it will be that long. Especially seeing as this would be an energy intensive project.

[DaveM]

With the rising cost of energy I don't think it will be that long. Especially seeing as this would be an energy intensive project.

You've lost me on that point...

[HanleyS]

You've lost me on that point...

Not that it's any more energy intensive than any other engineering activities. But there ain't going to be cheap diesel to run construction vehicles for much longer. In the long term costs are going to increase considerably.