The Climate Change Debate Thread

[bogmanjoe]

Gibbons is a school boy who won,t let me play with his football.
Perhaps Proffessor O,Dowd is mature enough to respond on an open forum?
Perhaps.

[Wakeupcall]

Dear fellow member of the American Physical Society:

This is a matter of great importance to the integrity of the Society. It is being sent to a random fraction of the membership, so we hope you will pass it on.

By now everyone has heard of what has come to be known as ClimateGate, which was and is an international scientific fraud, the worst any of us have seen in our cumulative 223 years of APS membership. For those who have missed the news we recommend the excellent summary article by Richard Lindzen in the November 30 edition of the Wall Street journal, entitled "The Climate Science isn't Settled," for a balanced account of the situation. It was written by a scientist of unquestioned authority and integrity. A copy can be found among the items at open_letter, and a visit to Climate Depot can fill in the details of the scandal, while adding spice.

What has this to do with APS? In 2007 the APS Council adopted a Statement on global warming (also reproduced at the tinyurl site mentioned above) that was based largely on the scientific work that is now revealed to have been corrupted. (The principals in this escapade have not denied what they did, but have sought to dismiss it by saying that it is normal practice among scientists. You know and we know that that is simply untrue. Physicists are not expected to cheat.)

American Thinker Blog: American Physical Society takes a stand against scientific fraud

[Truth shall set u free]

The Corruption of Ireland via the EU, Banks & NWO

Water: It is my quest to help the people of Ireland wake finally to the fact the Ireland is has been bought and paid for by Europe and its banks who were the very ones who caused the global financial crisis which we all now find ourselves in.
The question is were do I start, lets start with the control of water in this country, we have a water system that contains fluoride which was used by the Nazis in the concentration camps in Nazi occupied counties during WW2.
The fluoride was placed in the water to make the camps population docile and easy to control considering that Hitler sanctioned the use on fluoride in the water why have countries around the world, including Ireland allowed this chemical to be placed in the water especially with the link to the Nazi use of this chemical.
You ask what this has to do with europe and the banks, well here it is, the dumbing down effect this chemical has on the population is immence it has taken the will to challenge, question, discuss etc what the government of this country has done to the people of this country over the years, in particular since our joining the EU.

We have always thought that when we seen signs erected around the country 'funded by Europe' that we were getting something for nothing now that the other shoe has dropped some people in this country now realise that all that 'free' money has come at a very dear price, the country went mad building water treatment systems around the country via European funding, people jumped for joy at the thoughts of all this lovely clean water (even thought it contained poisonous Fluoride), only to realise that they would be paying through the nose for that funding i.e business water inwards charge and waste water outwards charge even when it was proven that some local councils were charging local business BEFORE a treatment plant was built, some businesses refused to pay because of the fact no water treatment facility was in place.
The government (led by europe) assumed that the charges levied on businesses could be endlessly passed on to the consumer who in turn were paying for the policy of fluoridation through increased rates in cancer and ill health.
Now in the December budget it looks like we will not only pay for being poisoned through bad healths effects but also with an introduction of domestic water charges.

Refuse / Waste: Now lets take refuse collection, we have a system in play were private companies are in control of household waste, they take our recycled rubbish and sell it on at a profit even though the household has paid for the collection of this rubbish via the service charge.
The service charge, and not the actual waste collected, makes up the majority of the bill for the collection.
The government now wants to increase landfill charges, which like all increases imposed by governments will involve an increase of service charges rather than actual waste collected as afore mentioned as it makes up more of the bill .

Roads: We all had thought the road building projects (funded by the EU) around the country were amazing, great, super, etc, etc, but we did not see at the time the elephant in the room and question who is going to pay for these projects.
We now have our answer, tolls, all the majors motorways have or will have tolls applied to them so it will be no longer free to travel without incuring some expense for rubber on tarmac.
There are millions of euros being paid to a private company, in relation to the M50, for years to come by the people who the M50 was supposed to benefit, the only people the M50 is benefiting on a daily basis is the private company and the government.

Carbon Tax: The government is introducing a Carbon Tax that is based on a system designed by Al Gore, with the help of Ken Lay (remember ENRON) and David Blood, former CEO Goldman Sachs, the same Goldman Sachs that is rewarding their directors massive bonuses in the shadow of America's greatest financial meltdown.
The release of leaked emails from the University of East Anglia regarding the manipulation of Climate data in favor of the Man - Made Global Warming lobby has reinforced what a lot of scientist around the world have said the global warming in caused by the Sun not by man, by saying its man made the private interests can attach a price to CO2 something that could not be done otherwise.

Finance: The European Central Bank control interest rates charged in this country, which is not a good thing considering all the people with high mortgages / loans, etc, are walking on egg shells hoping that interest rates won't be increased by the ECB.


In closing the question has to be asked, how did we let ourselves end up in this situation were we as ordinary people have have
let slip the control of our lives to governments who have not even the manners to respect the decision this nation makes on Eu structures that directly effect ours lives.
A good example, the people voted 'No' in the first Lisbon referendum, in response the Irish government turned around and stated that we did not understand what we were voting on and called the result a mistake by the Irish people and called for another referendum to be held.
In turn the government has surrendered this country to the privates concerns of banking and private enterprise, how shameful.
If we, the Irish people, along with other nations do not wake up to what is going on we will surrender ours live and the lives of our children to the EU that was created by the New World Order who is a collection of bankers, banking on the hope that people will remain as docile
and controllable as sheep which in part is aided by fluoridation as previously mentioned.
Don't count on the mainstream media to tell you the truth, they are owned by media groups that are owned in turn by the bankers of the world, and these bankers will only allow the media to tell you what they want you to know not the truth.

Please people wake and take back the lives you were meant to live not the ones that were preordained for you by individuals consumed with pure evil self interest.


Article by Declan Cullen

[PAD1OH]

the dumbing down effect this chemical has on the population is immence it has taken the will to challenge, question, discuss etc what the government of this country has done to the people of this country over the years, in particular since our joining the EU.

only complete moron could write this.

[PAD1OH]

Do your own research.


Declan Cullen

I've tried "declan" and I still can't find any proof of your grand paranoid conspiracies.

lay off the brown acid.

[Mouroux]

Food for thought:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRh5NNiFG0"]YouTube- John Lennon's Opinion about Over Population[/ame]

[ibis]

Here is my response.

Hello Prof O,Dowd,
I would like to discuss your previous post.

"The CO2-Climate issue is based on fundamental physics – CO2 is a simple, essentially non-reactive molecule that blocks infra-red radiation emitted from the Earth and the amounts emitted depends on the amount of visible radiation absorbed through the atmosphere."

If co2 blocks radiation leaving the earth does it not block radiation
coming in. Are you implying that it is one sided in thet respect?.
Further does the amount of visible radiation being absorbed through the atmosphere not depend on the amont of radiation being emmitted from the sun, which varies?

The problem is CO2's (and the other greenhouse gases) absorption of radiation emitted by the Earth, not by the Sun. Radiation from the Sun warms the Earth, which gives back some of that warmth as longer-wave (infrared) radiation. In the absence of an atmosphere that radiation would be lost to space, cooling the Earth (because each escaping photon carries energy) - the presence of gases like CO2 in the atmosphere mean that some of the radiation is intercepted by the atmosphere instead. Increasing concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere mean increasing interception of radiation by the atmosphere, which leads to atmospheric warming.

This is a well-known effect, first measured in the nineteenth century.

"We know the emissions of CO2, we know the accumulation in the atmosphere, we know the biosphere uptake (this is evident from the seasonal cycle in CO2 which is not changing much so far!), we know the interaction with radiation, and we know the effect on the radiation balance – simple physics, otherwise basic physics is wrong and we are in great trouble! "

Do we know all this? Do we know that co2 is plant food. Simple physics.

Believe it or not, people go out and measure these things, to the extent of covering a section of rainforest to measure CO2 input/output.

"What is uncertain is the climate (temperature and precipitation) sensitivity to CO2 accumulation and this has more to do with transmission of solar energy through the atmosphere rather than solar energy variability. This solar energy transmission is controlled by atmospheric aerosols and their cooling effect through their role in determining the reflectance of haze and cloud layers."

Here you make an atempt to seperate solar energy being transmitted through the atmosphere from solar energy output. Despite the fact
that they are directly interlinked. You give way too much credit to
co2 which is miniscule in terms of percentage of atmosphere and GHG.

It should be fairly obvious that the amount of light transmitted through a pane of glass will depend both on the strength of the light and on how much light the glass transmits.

To give you an idea of the sensitivity we're talking about here, consider that the 'brown haze' over Los Angeles is photochemical smog with concentrations of the order of a couple of parts per million - a smog warning is issued in Japan at ozone levels of 0.12 ppm, a smog alert at 0.24 ppm. The total concentrations of the pollutants that cause the brown haze is a couple of ppm all told.

"One compelling reason for recent periods of global cooling, or global dimming, has been due to atmospheric aerosols (Particulate Matter in terms of Air Quality issues) accumulation."

Hardly compelling . That sounds like something Gore would come up with.
This dimming you refer to is the result of the sun,s current state.

SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids

See above.

"However, as we strive towards cleaner air, the temperature response will be, and has been in more recent years, greater than previously estimated, resulting in an increased rate of global warming. The net result is that cleaning up air quality will increase the rate of global warming and the rate of global warming can be almost completely (with the exception of soot carbon) attributed to the increase in greenhouse gases. "

I am assuming you made a mistake here Proffessor.
From what I can gather you are saying The Chinese
are doing a grat job by making the air filthy.
Please explain.

Sulphate pollution has a cooling effect, as do several other airborne pollutants. It's a pity the stuff causes acid rain and respiratory problems, otherwise we could let the sulphates and the greenhouse gases come to a noxious sort of balance.

"The most important greenhouse gas is water vapour but the amount of water vapour is interlinked with the amount of greenhouse gases as CO2 induced warming will increase the water evaporation rate and potentially also lead to increases storminess and precipitation."

While I agree with you on the importance of water vapour, again you give way too much credit to co2 despite its miniscule nature.
The sun creates water vapour, yet once again you ommit the sun.
As far as storms and precipitation is concerned Henrick Svensmark has proved beyond therory the battle between solar wind/magnetisim and cosmic rays determines cloud formation and percipitation.

He's pointing out that the warming from the CO2 causes increased water evaporation, which multiplies the effect of the CO2. The serious problem in global warming isn't the warming directly attributable to greenhouse gases, but exactly these multiplier effects.

"To suggest that 3% of the increase of CO2 results from anthropogenic emissions is without foundation. This means that 97% of the emission increases are either unaccounted for or are natural (geophysical or biospheric). The biosphere tends to remove CO2, leaving geophysical emissions as accounting for 97% of the increase in CO2 concentrations in the atmospheric. "

No one made this suggestion. Plimer was reffering to overall co2 levels, not the increase.

“Human contribution to carbon dioxide, which is really a trace gas, is 0.117 of one per cent,” Prof Plimer said.

"If this is the case, there is a massive emission of CO2 from the Earth’s surface or from regions remote from measurement networks. Remote volcanoes could be such a source, as cited by the sceptic, but the first and gold standard CO2 time series by Keeling et al, do not illustrate any such volcanic effect since measurements started in 1958 (these were located on Mauna Loa Observatory, close to a volcano. "

Short List of volcanic eruptions since 1958.
Mt St Helena U.S.A 1980, 2005
Mt Penetubo Philipines 1991, 1993
Mountserratt Carribean 1995 2004

Are you saying these eruptions played no role in the increase
from 350 ppm to 385ppm?

Please clarify Proffessor.
Thanks Joe

Volcanic CO2 emissions (2003) = 200 million tonnes
Human CO2 emissions (2003) = 26.8 billion tonnes

[Jethro]

Food for thought:

YouTube- John Lennon's Opinion about Over Population

That was a great link there Mouroux, ta.

Was expecting something completely different from Mr.Lennon.

In my opinion it is concerns about population and consumption growth that are the main reasons why fears about AGW has such momentum. even though it is increases in consumption that lead to increased welfare.

[Truth shall set u free]

In reply to PAD1OH

You must have a very bad Broadband connection, Its all over the internet and mentioned in some mainstream publications, are you actully trying to tell me that you have not heard of the New World Order when George Bush, Barach Obama, Gordon Browne, the Pope have mentioned it ON camera.
Your reply came 11 minutes after I posted the article, some research.

Take the Polar Bear fur out of your ears, and remove those rose tinted glasses your wearing and see whats going on around you.
Insulting people with non - conforming views will not make them go away.

Declan Cullen

[Mouroux]

Hi Jethro:

Here's something that you also would not expect at the 2nd International Climate Conference, Berlin, December 4th, 2009:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1UAFRlZtVE"]YouTube- Lord Monckton on Climategate at the 2nd International Climate Conference, Dec. 4, 2009 - 1of4[/ame]