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Thread: The Climate Change Debate Thread

  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Húrin View Post
    No, on pp 55 and 143 of his 2006 report, Stern warns of risking a loss of 5% of GDP every year in the few decades that close the 21st century. Which is more in line with what the science is pointing to, such as the decimation of Indian agriculture.
    Your correction is acknowledged. Stern's estimates of costs will cost more than a couple of years of growth. But the Stern review was just just one - non peer reviewed - report. It was heavily criticised by economists who had already done major reports in this area. The reference for warming costing 1 to 2 years of growth came from a 2009 ESRI paper by Richard Tol. Another, William Nordhaus, described as the foremost climate economic modeller has estimated the total costs of warming this century to be $23trillion. Using the 4 main IPCC SRES scenarios, average projected income for this century is $2300trillion. (Lomborg 'Cool it' 2007 pp. 163). These figures are obviously not cast iron but even if the cost was out 10 fold higher, the world would still be vastly better off in 2100 than today.

    Another perpective is to compare incomes again using the IPCC SRES. (Stern used the A2 scenario in his report). In the A1FI and B1 world's international trade is encouraged leading to a far richer world than A2 and B2. Because the wealth is more dispersed in A1FI and B1, global inequality is reduced and population growth more stabilized at 7.9bn by 2085. Developing country incomes/capita are respectively $66,000 and $40,000 (1990 US$) compared to a global average today of $7000. This is why a GWP cut of 5% from even 2085 is a very small burden to carry relative to the real poor - today's generation.

    Source:

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-609.pdf

    You may not agree with the determinations in the above paper but all the figures are drawn from official reports through the UN or the UK's DEFRA.

    With respect to India's agricultural concerns, India's economy has grown by 6.2% for the last decade (Economist world figures 2008). Even if it's income was to continue to grow at half that, income by 2085 would be $7000+. No country in the world today with that income has a problem feeding it's people. If the EU and to a lesser extent, the developed world opened itself up to freer global trade, India's growth prospects would be even greater. And this is to say nothing of the increased stock of knowledge we will have in the future.

    Finally, the obvious problem with opening up trade and enabling a rapid acceleration of developing world growth is that emissions would rise faster. But what economists are trying to do is to maximize global welfare. This is done by aiming to allocate our resources appropriately on the various challenges and opportunities we face. At this stage of our development we will get far more in return for encouraging free trade and doing things like fighting AIDS than we will from making deep cuts in CO2 emissions.

    My own relatively lay opinion on all this is to support the proposals of the likes of Nordhaus and Tol. That is to start adressing CO2 with a modest global carbon tax (<$10/tonne CO2). This would mainly wean out the wasted CO2 first costing the world little and then as the decades pass and more energy options open up through technological growth, the tax would be ramped up ($80 by 2100). Total CO2 cuts by 2100 would likely be less than 15% from 1990 but aiming for higher would be sub optimal.

    Regards,

    Jethro.
    Last edited by Jethro; 2nd October 2009 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Typing errors

  2. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAD10H View Post
    basing judgment on the view of large scientific institutes that have a reputation to uphold.
    It seems you are refereing to reports by the IPCC, a thoroughly discredited group, famous for their 'hockey stick' temperature rise (bogus) prediction. It would be advisable to obtain information from other sources rather than them.

  3. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrejsv View Post
    It seems you are refereing to reports by the IPCC, a thoroughly discredited group, famous for their 'hockey stick' temperature rise (bogus) prediction. It would be advisable to obtain information from other sources rather than them.
    Yeah, the IPCC is discredited, but the deniers who still cling to old versions of graphs based on incomplete data just because it shows a 'medieval warm period' are enlightened saviours of the truth?

    The Hockey Stick graph may not be perfect, but the National Academy of Science has affirmed that it is much more accurate than the graph that shows the 'medieval warm period' which is now known to be just a regional phenomenon.

    There are multiple independent studies using multiple data sets and sources for temperature readings that show results similar to Mann's hockey stick graph, the original graph that the denialists love to bring up was based on a flawed data set.

    If you prefer to believe ideological 'think tanks' and internet conspiracy websites instead of the IPCC or National Academy of Science, then that is your perogative, but i ask you to support your opinion that the 'Hockey stick' graph with evidence. (Bearing in mind that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it)
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

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    Maldives President highlighted concern of sea level rise, maldives will be first country will be lost to seas may be followed by Bangladesh as said UN general assembly. Now to highlight again Maldives cabinet to go underwater

    I am not hippie neighther voted Greens (New PD's) but its time drop my cyncism about Global warming any more..
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  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananarepublic.ie View Post
    Maldives President highlighted concern of sea level rise, maldives will be first country will be lost to seas may be followed by Bangladesh as said UN general assembly. Now to highlight again Maldives cabinet to go underwater

    I am not hippie neighther voted Greens (New PD's) but its time drop my cyncism about Global warming any more..

    I would be quite happy to live in the Maldives and take my chances...

  6. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-ray View Post
    I would be quite happy to live in the Maldives and take my chances...
    off ya go so.
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

  7. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananarepublic.ie View Post
    Maldives President highlighted concern of sea level rise, maldives will be first country will be lost to seas may be followed by Bangladesh as said UN general assembly. Now to highlight again Maldives cabinet to go underwater

    I am not hippie neighther voted Greens (New PD's) but its time drop my cyncism about Global warming any more..
    It is surprising to hear the Maldivian govt calling for cuts in CO2. I'm not aware of any study having been done but it would be interesting to see the effect on their economy of say a $100/tn CO2 tax on aircraft fuel. (seeing as plane's emissions apparently are doing so much damage).

  8. #418
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    the amount of water required to raise the level of the sea even 1cm is amazingly large. Why have we not already seen sea rise if the temp of it has risen, surely it should be expanding as well as being added to?

    Now are can all test this one, anyone can go to the beach and check on erosion and high tidal marks.

  9. #419
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    What we're most interested in is the long term trends. Figure 2 shows 20 year trends from the tidal data. From 1880 to the early 1900's, sea level was rising at around 1mm per year. Throughout most of the 20th century, sea levels have been rising at around 2mm per year. In the latter 20th century, it's reached 3mm per year. The five most recent 20-year trends also happen to be the highest values.

    Figure 4: The linear trends in sea level over 20-year periods, with one sigma error on the trend estimates shown by the dotted lines. From 1963 to 1991, there were a series of volcanic eruptions which caused cooling and hence contraction of the upper ocean. This temporarily slowed the rate of sea level rise.

    So a broader view of the historical record reveals that sea level is not just rising. The rate of sea level rise has been increasing since the late 19th century. In an upcoming post, we shall look at predictions of future sea level rise.
    Sea level rise is exaggerated

    A rise of at least two meters in the world's sea levels is now almost unstoppable, experts told a climate conference at Oxford University on Tuesday.

    "The crux of the sea level issue is that it starts very slowly but once it gets going it is practically unstoppable," said Stefan Rahmstorf, a scientist at Germany's Potsdam Institute and a widely recognized sea level expert.

    "There is no way I can see to stop this rise, even if we have gone to zero emissions."

    Rahmstorf said the best outcome was that after temperatures stabilized, sea levels would only rise at a steady rate "for centuries to come," and not accelerate.

    Most scientists expect at least 2 degrees Celsius warming as a result of man-made greenhouse gas emissions, and probably more. The world warmed 0.7-0.8 degrees last century.

    Rahmstorf estimated that if the world limited warming to 1.5 degrees then it would still see two meters sea level rise over centuries, which would see some island nations disappear.
    Two meter sea level rise unstoppable-experts | Science | Reuters

    Tuvala is one worried island nation and many other are as well and indeed several low level coastal cities like Tokyo, Osaka, Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Seoul, Bangkok, Dhaka, Karachi, Jakarta, Manila, Shanghai, Tianjin, Lagos, Cairo, Istanbul, London, New York, Los Angeles, Buenos Aires and Lima.

    No Stopping it Now: Seas to Rise 4 Inches or More this Century | LiveScience

    The Heat Is Online
    "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." - Chapman Cohen.

  10. #420
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    That seems an alarmist report.

    below is an image of the recorded sea level rise. It shows that during the last warming trend sea level was rising at 3.2 mm/year. Assuming that it kept going at a linear rate, to acheive a 2 m increase it would require 625 years.

    However it seems that the rate of sea level rise has decreased in the last few years

    Last edited by andrejsv; 7th October 2009 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Update 2008 graph wit 2009. Removed sarcasm

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