Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

How many times do I have to refute this fallacy?

Once would be a good start.

You can make up whatever reasons you want for disliking the skepticalscience graph but even the one you posted shows flat or declining solar activity since about 1950 with the decline being even more pronounced in recent years. Temperatures have clearly not tracked solar activity since the mid 1970s which is the mainstream scientific position.

You have not outlined exactly what it is you disagree with from owedtojoy's posting nor have you shown why his sources are wrong. This is hardly surprising since to make solar activity and temperatures match you either have to throw out the temperature data or the solar activity data.

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

Again I quote this and the chart above is to 2009 not 1998. It is inaccurate. Furthermore this is what is written underneath the chart from Sceptical Science

No it isn't. It agrees very well with the Lean & Wang(2005) paper, which I post again.



But where is the evidence for your claim that solar irradiance ONLY influences climate? That is the fallacy.

So they took 2 separate time series interpretations of Solar Irradiance and glued them together to suit the needs of their propaganda.

How many times do I have to refute this fallacy?

The only fallacy around here is your claim that solar irradiance and solar irradiance ONLY influences climate. Solar irradiance is a part of natural variability, and of course influences climate, but not in the way greenhouse gases have dominated recent warming.


Solar contribution to global warming according to Meehl et al. 2004 (M04, blue), Stone et al. 2007 (S07, red), Lean and Rind 2008 (LR08, green), and Huber and Knutti 2011 (HK11, purple).

Solar activity & climate: is the sun causing global warming?

Incidentally, here is a chart from Dr Lean's paper of 2008 (with Rind, the results are above, they estimate solar irradiance makes only 10% contribution to global warming).


Lean and Rind reconstructions of the contributions to monthly mean global surface temperatures by individual natural and anthropogenic influences. The right hand axes give the native scales of each influence, and the left hand axes give the corresponding temperature change determined from the multiple regression analysis. The grey lines are trends for the whole interval. The inset in Figure 2d shows the individual greenhouse gases, tropospheric aerosols and the land surface plus snow albedo components that combine to give the net anthropogenic forcing.

Lean and Rind Estimate Human and Natural Global Warming

Remember, CS, it was you who used Dr Lean's chart to claim "inaccuracy". Why then is she writing papers that say solar irradiance is only responsible for 10% of global warming?

And she does agree there has been global warming. Do you?

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

Say what? How many times can one say a tautology such as solar variance is the primary cause of climate change?

Proven wrong. We can call it BS.

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

https://landscheidt.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/

Does not relate to current rapid global warming!

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

This thread is not a debate, its a form of displacement for failed control freaks.

Weird misconception.

A new round of Arctic Ice predictions.

Note: Every single prediction (even Anthony Watts') if for an extent less than 5M km^2. The 5M barrier was only broken for the first recorded time 5 years ago, and deniers of global warming (or ice decline) have been talking up a "recovery" ever since.



In fact, ice extent is being lost at this time faster than 2007, the record minimum extent. June and July (around the solstice) are the biggest declines, and about 0.5M km^2 has been lost in the last 4 days - and average of 0.125M km^2 per day. That may last another week or so, even well into July. If it does, we may be on for a new record. However, much depends on the local weather this summer.

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

It's a chart of a model, not measured irradiance!

=> http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/p...irradiance.txt

NAME OF DATA SET: Solar Irradiance Reconstruction
LAST UPDATE: 7/2004 (Original receipt by WDC Paleo)


CONTRIBUTOR: Judith Lean, Naval Research Laboratory
IGBP PAGES/WDCA CONTRIBUTION SERIES NUMBER: 2004-035


SUGGESTED DATA CITATION: Lean, J.. 2004.
Solar Irradiance Reconstruction.
IGBP PAGES/World Data Center for Paleoclimatology
Data Contribution Series # 2004-035.
NOAA/NGDC Paleoclimatology Program, Boulder CO, USA.


ORIGINAL REFERENCE: Lean, J. 2000.
Evolution of the Sun's Spectral Irradiance Since the Maunder Minimum.
Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 27, No. 16, pp. 2425-2428,
Aug. 15, 2000.


ADDITIONAL REFERENCE: Lean, J., J. Beer, and R. Bradley. 1995.
Reconstruction of Solar Irradiance Since 1610: Implications for Climate Change.
Geophysical Research Letters, v.22, No. 23, pp 3195-3198, December 1, 1995.


ABSTRACT (Lean 2000):
Because of the dependence of the Sun's irradiance on solar activity,
reductions from contemporary levels are expected during the
seventeenth century Maunder Minimum. New reconstructions of spectral
irradiance are developed since 1600 with absolute scales traceable to
spacebased observations. The long-term variations track the envelope
of group sunspot numbers and have amplitudes consistent with the range
of Ca II brightness in Sun-like stars. Estimated increases since 1675
are 0.7%, 0.2% and 0.07% in broad ultraviolet, visible/near infrared
and infrared spectral bands, with a total irradiance increase of 0.2%.


FUNDING SOURCE: NASA, USA.
GEOGRAPHIC REGION: Global
PERIOD OF RECORD: 1610 - 2000 AD


DESCRIPTION:
Updated solar irradiance reconstruction. (See also Lean et al., 1995).
Included are time series of annual mean irradiance from 1610 to 2000
of just the 11 year solar irradiance cycle, plus the 11 year
cycle with a background component. See Lean (2000) for discussion of
the amplitude of the background component.


DATA:

Calculation of TSI from calc_tsi_ann.pro
Mon Apr 2 15:18:18 2001

YEAR 11yrCYCLE 11yrCYCLE+BKGRND

1610.5 1365.8477 1364.7338
1611.5 1365.8342 1364.7075
1612.5 1366.2461 1365.0675
1613.5 1366.3650 1365.1611
1614.5 1366.4451 1365.2197
1615.5 1366.1591 1364.9456
1616.5 1365.7358 1364.5469
1617.5 1365.6107 1364.4189
1618.5 1365.6038 1364.3983
1619.5 1365.7001 1364.4717
1620.5 1365.7001 1364.4574
...
1910.5 1365.7173 1364.6566
1911.5 1365.6285 1364.5870
1912.5 1365.5706 1364.5724
1913.5 1365.5739 1364.6243
1914.5 1365.6302 1364.7195
1915.5 1365.9285 1365.0414
1916.5 1366.1349 1365.2614
1917.5 1366.2821 1365.4149
1918.5 1366.2454 1365.3726
1919.5 1366.0179 1365.1373
1920.5 1365.8523 1364.9840
1921.5 1365.7351 1364.9114
1922.5 1365.6019 1364.8347
1923.5 1365.6211 1364.9006
1924.5 1365.6436 1364.9569
1925.5 1365.8406 1365.1799
1926.5 1365.9348 1365.2997
1927.5 1366.1135 1365.4958
1928.5 1365.9885 1365.3811
1929.5 1365.9429 1365.3519
1930.5 1365.9159 1365.3588
1931.5 1365.7780 1365.2800
1932.5 1365.6583 1365.2067
1933.5 1365.5300 1365.1062
1934.5 1365.6361 1365.2339
1935.5 1365.8500 1365.4572
1936.5 1366.2373 1365.8521
1937.5 1366.1718 1365.7859
1938.5 1366.1079 1365.7197
1939.5 1366.0894 1365.7096
1940.5 1366.0143 1365.6804
1941.5 1365.9130 1365.6616
1942.5 1365.7847 1365.6266
1943.5 1365.6052 1365.5270
1944.5 1365.6224 1365.5911
1945.5 1365.8850 1365.8702
1946.5 1365.9818 1365.9720
1947.5 1366.2190 1366.2172
1948.5 1366.3475 1366.3531
1949.5 1366.2528 1366.2626
1950.5 1366.0098 1366.0220
1951.5 1365.7721 1365.7882
1952.5 1365.7653 1365.7739
1953.5 1365.6313 1365.6204
1954.5 1365.6599 1365.6467
1955.5 1365.7793 1365.7719
1956.5 1366.3097 1366.3141
1957.5 1366.6632 1366.6812
1958.5 1366.6246 1366.6552
1959.5 1366.3717 1366.4130
1960.5 1366.2682 1366.2997
1961.5 1365.9230 1365.9115
1962.5 1365.7656 1365.7020
1963.5 1365.7152 1365.6451
1964.5 1365.7114 1365.6605
1965.5 1365.7378 1365.7242
1966.5 1365.9058 1365.9506
1967.5 1366.0889 1366.1831
1968.5 1366.1295 1366.2590
1969.5 1366.2069 1366.3573
1970.5 1366.2036 1366.3480
1971.5 1365.9354 1366.0192
1972.5 1366.0519 1366.0541
1973.5 1365.8131 1365.7612
1974.5 1365.7448 1365.6792
1975.5 1365.5466 1365.5020
1976.5 1365.6458 1365.6442
1977.5 1365.8248 1365.8557
1978.5 1366.2616 1366.3101
1979.5 1366.6193 1366.6769
1980.5 1366.6323 1366.6913
1981.5 1366.6829 1366.7280
1982.5 1366.2808 1366.2999
1983.5 1366.1989 1366.2001
1984.5 1365.8088 1365.8145
1985.5 1365.6382 1365.6506
1986.5 1365.6345 1365.6470
1987.5 1365.7865 1365.7990
1988.5 1366.0792 1366.0918
1989.5 1366.6445 1366.6570
1990.5 1366.5499 1366.5624
1991.5 1366.4423 1366.4547
1992.5 1366.2987 1366.3112
1993.5 1366.0251 1366.0377
1994.5 1365.7937 1365.8063
1995.5 1365.6962 1365.7087
1996.5 1365.6086 1365.6211
1997.5 1365.7365 1365.7489
1998.5 1366.0986 1366.1111
1999.5 1366.3817 1366.3942
2000.5 1366.6620 1366.6744

The chart obviously shows the 11yrCYCLE+BKGRND data.

But the data are going down again



Now let's take a look at the temperatures during that time:



And for the last 100 years



So the lose relationship between sun activity and global temperature has totally vanished for the last 40 years.

The main driver nowadays are greenhouse gases.



CO2 and temperature have been correlating for the last 500,000 years!



Guess what's happening despite decreasing solar activity?

Originally Posted by sharper

Once would be a good start.

You can make up whatever reasons you want for disliking the skepticalscience graph but even the one you posted shows flat or declining solar activity since about 1950 with the decline being even more pronounced in recent years. Temperatures have clearly not tracked solar activity since the mid 1970s which is the mainstream scientific position.

You have not outlined exactly what it is you disagree with from owedtojoy's posting nor have you shown why his sources are wrong. This is hardly surprising since to make solar activity and temperatures match you either have to throw out the temperature data or the solar activity data.

What like this?




Again I refer to this post which it was claimed that the chart could not be refuted. It was debunked and exposed as a lie.

The Climate Change Debate Thread

Furthermore, that graph that I refuted is a fantasy of the Skeptical Science website, which is a blog run by a cartoonist.

About Skeptical Science

This site was created by John Cook. I'm not a climatologist or a scientist but a self employed cartoonist and web programmer by trade. I did a Physics degree at the University of Queensland and while I achieved First Class Honours and could've continued onto a PhD, I instead quit academia and became a professional scrawler. Too much doodling in lectures, I think.

The graph owedtojoy illustrated and claimed I couldn't refute is a fallacy. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by owedtojoy

But where is the evidence for your claim that solar irradiance ONLY influences climate? That is the fallacy.

I said Primary, not "only"

How many times can one say a tautology such as solar variance is the primary cause of climate change?

The Climate Change Debate Thread


Again you are twisting what I said and ignoring the exposure of the lie. Remember this?

Finally, the chart CS cannot refute:

That chart is a LIE.

Originally Posted by SirCharles

It's a chart of a model, not measured irradiance!

=> http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/p...irradiance.txt

NAME OF DATA SET: Solar Irradiance Reconstruction
LAST UPDATE: 7/2004 (Original receipt by WDC Paleo)


CONTRIBUTOR: Judith Lean, Naval Research Laboratory
IGBP PAGES/WDCA CONTRIBUTION SERIES NUMBER: 2004-035


SUGGESTED DATA CITATION: Lean, J.. 2004.
Solar Irradiance Reconstruction.
IGBP PAGES/World Data Center for Paleoclimatology
Data Contribution Series # 2004-035.
NOAA/NGDC Paleoclimatology Program, Boulder CO, USA.


ORIGINAL REFERENCE: Lean, J. 2000.
Evolution of the Sun's Spectral Irradiance Since the Maunder Minimum.
Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 27, No. 16, pp. 2425-2428,
Aug. 15, 2000.


ADDITIONAL REFERENCE: Lean, J., J. Beer, and R. Bradley. 1995.
Reconstruction of Solar Irradiance Since 1610: Implications for Climate Change.
Geophysical Research Letters, v.22, No. 23, pp 3195-3198, December 1, 1995.


ABSTRACT (Lean 2000):
Because of the dependence of the Sun's irradiance on solar activity,
reductions from contemporary levels are expected during the
seventeenth century Maunder Minimum. New reconstructions of spectral
irradiance are developed since 1600 with absolute scales traceable to
spacebased observations. The long-term variations track the envelope
of group sunspot numbers and have amplitudes consistent with the range
of Ca II brightness in Sun-like stars. Estimated increases since 1675
are 0.7%, 0.2% and 0.07% in broad ultraviolet, visible/near infrared
and infrared spectral bands, with a total irradiance increase of 0.2%.


FUNDING SOURCE: NASA, USA.
GEOGRAPHIC REGION: Global
PERIOD OF RECORD: 1610 - 2000 AD


DESCRIPTION:
Updated solar irradiance reconstruction. (See also Lean et al., 1995).
Included are time series of annual mean irradiance from 1610 to 2000
of just the 11 year solar irradiance cycle, plus the 11 year
cycle with a background component. See Lean (2000) for discussion of
the amplitude of the background component.


DATA:

Calculation of TSI from calc_tsi_ann.pro
Mon Apr 2 15:18:18 2001

YEAR 11yrCYCLE 11yrCYCLE+BKGRND

1610.5 1365.8477 1364.7338
1611.5 1365.8342 1364.7075
1612.5 1366.2461 1365.0675
1613.5 1366.3650 1365.1611
1614.5 1366.4451 1365.2197
1615.5 1366.1591 1364.9456
1616.5 1365.7358 1364.5469
1617.5 1365.6107 1364.4189
1618.5 1365.6038 1364.3983
1619.5 1365.7001 1364.4717
1620.5 1365.7001 1364.4574
...
1910.5 1365.7173 1364.6566
1911.5 1365.6285 1364.5870
1912.5 1365.5706 1364.5724
1913.5 1365.5739 1364.6243
1914.5 1365.6302 1364.7195
1915.5 1365.9285 1365.0414
1916.5 1366.1349 1365.2614
1917.5 1366.2821 1365.4149
1918.5 1366.2454 1365.3726
1919.5 1366.0179 1365.1373
1920.5 1365.8523 1364.9840
1921.5 1365.7351 1364.9114
1922.5 1365.6019 1364.8347
1923.5 1365.6211 1364.9006
1924.5 1365.6436 1364.9569
1925.5 1365.8406 1365.1799
1926.5 1365.9348 1365.2997
1927.5 1366.1135 1365.4958
1928.5 1365.9885 1365.3811
1929.5 1365.9429 1365.3519
1930.5 1365.9159 1365.3588
1931.5 1365.7780 1365.2800
1932.5 1365.6583 1365.2067
1933.5 1365.5300 1365.1062
1934.5 1365.6361 1365.2339
1935.5 1365.8500 1365.4572
1936.5 1366.2373 1365.8521
1937.5 1366.1718 1365.7859
1938.5 1366.1079 1365.7197
1939.5 1366.0894 1365.7096
1940.5 1366.0143 1365.6804
1941.5 1365.9130 1365.6616
1942.5 1365.7847 1365.6266
1943.5 1365.6052 1365.5270
1944.5 1365.6224 1365.5911
1945.5 1365.8850 1365.8702
1946.5 1365.9818 1365.9720
1947.5 1366.2190 1366.2172
1948.5 1366.3475 1366.3531
1949.5 1366.2528 1366.2626
1950.5 1366.0098 1366.0220
1951.5 1365.7721 1365.7882
1952.5 1365.7653 1365.7739
1953.5 1365.6313 1365.6204
1954.5 1365.6599 1365.6467
1955.5 1365.7793 1365.7719
1956.5 1366.3097 1366.3141
1957.5 1366.6632 1366.6812
1958.5 1366.6246 1366.6552
1959.5 1366.3717 1366.4130
1960.5 1366.2682 1366.2997
1961.5 1365.9230 1365.9115
1962.5 1365.7656 1365.7020
1963.5 1365.7152 1365.6451
1964.5 1365.7114 1365.6605
1965.5 1365.7378 1365.7242
1966.5 1365.9058 1365.9506
1967.5 1366.0889 1366.1831
1968.5 1366.1295 1366.2590
1969.5 1366.2069 1366.3573
1970.5 1366.2036 1366.3480
1971.5 1365.9354 1366.0192
1972.5 1366.0519 1366.0541
1973.5 1365.8131 1365.7612
1974.5 1365.7448 1365.6792
1975.5 1365.5466 1365.5020
1976.5 1365.6458 1365.6442
1977.5 1365.8248 1365.8557
1978.5 1366.2616 1366.3101
1979.5 1366.6193 1366.6769
1980.5 1366.6323 1366.6913
1981.5 1366.6829 1366.7280
1982.5 1366.2808 1366.2999
1983.5 1366.1989 1366.2001
1984.5 1365.8088 1365.8145
1985.5 1365.6382 1365.6506
1986.5 1365.6345 1365.6470
1987.5 1365.7865 1365.7990
1988.5 1366.0792 1366.0918
1989.5 1366.6445 1366.6570
1990.5 1366.5499 1366.5624
1991.5 1366.4423 1366.4547
1992.5 1366.2987 1366.3112
1993.5 1366.0251 1366.0377
1994.5 1365.7937 1365.8063
1995.5 1365.6962 1365.7087
1996.5 1365.6086 1365.6211
1997.5 1365.7365 1365.7489
1998.5 1366.0986 1366.1111
1999.5 1366.3817 1366.3942
2000.5 1366.6620 1366.6744

The chart obviously shows the 11yrCYCLE+BKGRND data.

The modelled data fot the last 100 years or so have been quite stable.

I know that! That's not the point, the chart that is a lie is the one that has been combined using 2 different data sets to fit the magical thinking of the author.

Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome

I said Primary, not "only"



The Climate Change Debate Thread


Again you are twisting what I said and ignoring the exposure of the lie. Remember this?






That chart is a LIE.

Nothing wrong with that chart. The difference between the charts is superficial. If you can supply a statistical analysis that shows the difference is significant, then I might listen. Otherwise it is just another bit of denialist wishful thinking.

All the charts (including the ones you posted) show that solar irradiance is not the major forcing behind global warming (there are many other charts that show the same), a fact you deny in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

You are trying to avoid that general scientific finding that solar variance is responsible for only ~10% of global warming (~20% at most), with the bulk due to greenhouse gases (or is that "magical thinking"?).

What is your evaluation of the relative percentages (it seems to be 100% solar in your opinion)? And can you show supporting evidence that stands up to the papers below?


Solar contribution to global warming according to Meehl et al. 2004 (M04, blue), Stone et al. 2007 (S07, red), Lean and Rind 2008 (LR08, green), and Huber and Knutti 2011 (HK11, purple).