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  1. #11571
    Agnotologist Agnotologist is offline

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    I posted that to a couple of places in the US, Imokyrok.

    I also posted the Petition.
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  2. #11572
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Great to see a suberb site on thermal science and the greenhouse effect is back in action.

    Science of Doom was quiescent for a while but has re-activated. However, I notice that SoD (as he calls himself) is much less patient with ignorance and stupidity than he used to be.

    Here is another excellent post about the greenhouse effect. Here he duplicates an equation from a textbook:



    Which translates as:

    Solar radiation absorbed + longwave radiation absorbed – thermal radiation emitted – latent heat emitted – sensible heat emitted + geothermal energy supplied = 0
    So the second term (circled in red) is the longwave radiation absorbed by teh earth from atmosphere (supplied by the greenhouse effect). His beef is:

    Now one thing is not amazing to me - of the tens (hundreds?) of concerned citizens commenting on the many articles on this subject who have tried to point out my “basic mistake” and tell me that the atmosphere can’t blah blah blah, not a single one has produced an equation
    Worth reading in full: Amazing Things we Find in Textbooks – The Real Second Law of Thermodynamics « The Science of Doom

    “Blah blah blah” vs Equations « The Science of Doom
    Last edited by owedtojoy; 26th February 2012 at 05:41 PM.
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  3. #11573
    andrejsv andrejsv is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Great to see a suberb site on thermal science and the greenhouse effect is back in action.
    That's one thing we can agree on, its a superb site.
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  4. #11574
    andrejsv andrejsv is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    John Nielsen-Gammon (Texas State climatologist) has a great post on his site tacking the old "CO2 is plant food" meme.
    Thanks for posting the graph, the way I interpret it is that plants evolved to maximize growth about 1200 ppm or so, which indicates much higher CO2 concentrations in the past (during their evolution) that at present. It also shows the rapid and catastrophic decline of growth and agricultural yield (pretty much linear to zero) as the Co2 concentration is reduced from that at present (leading to hunger, famine, deaths of millions). This fully supports the idea that higher Co2 concentrations as far as food production are good.

    One driver for the increase in CO2 is the deforestation due to human populations (reduced O2 output) and increase in the human population itself (increase in Co2 output due to breathing) it would be interesting to put numbers to both. (its almost a zero sum game)

    So if you wanted to tax someone for the increase in Co2, you should tax Brazil and other developing countries for deforestation and rapid population growth. Using AGW logic, every body must share in the burden. (Now, what are the governments doing with the money they plan to collect on carbon taxes?)
    Last edited by andrejsv; 26th February 2012 at 06:22 PM.
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  5. #11575
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrejsv View Post
    Thanks for posting the graph, the way I interpret it is that plants evolved to maximize growth about 1200 ppm or so, which indicates much higher CO2 concentrations in the past (during their evolution) that at present. It also shows the rapid and catastrophic decline of growth and agricultural yield (pretty much linear to zero) as the Co2 concentration is reduced from that at present (leading to hunger, famine, deaths of millions). This fully supports the idea that higher Co2 concentrations as far as food production are good.
    A very rosy view of the chart, and a completely different from the view of the scientist who presented it, who wrote
    Notice how the net assimilation vs. ambient CO2 concentration curve trails off towards a flat response above about 500 ppm.
    Guest Post: Carbon Dioxide and Plants | Climate Abyss | a Chron.com blog

    So from 500 to 1200ppm, carbon assimilation by plants is negligible, though carbon dioxide conc. in the atmosphere may have more than doubled.

    That pretty will shows that the norm of carbon dioxide that plants are used to is less than 500ppm, and in all probably they evolved in that environment. Surely the median concentration between 200 and 400ppm is far more likely.

    "CO2 is good for plants" is only true in limited circumstances - possibly in industrial type farming where soil and water are controlled, but not for you poor third world farmer. As usual, you have applied you own fervent wishes to scientific facts ... you really should go back and watch that video on reasoning I suggested for you.

    One driver for the increase in CO2 is the deforestation due to human populations (reduced O2 output) and increase in the human population itself (increase in Co2 output due to breathing) it would be interesting to put numbers to both. (its almost a zero sum game)
    I think you are wrong here. Deforestation by burning increases carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and reduces the availability of carbon sinks. Since we just breathe out the carbon dioxide we breathe in, human bodily processes make a negligible contribution to atmospheric CO2.

    So if you wanted to tax someone for the increase in Co2, you should tax Brazil and other developing countries for deforestation and rapid population growth. Using AGW logic, every body must share in the burden. (Now, what are the governments doing with the money they plan to collect on carbon taxes?)
    No one can "tax" Brazil - they have to tax themselves to reach emission targets agreed internationally agreed. Carbon fees from fossil fuel companies could be given as a rebate to consumers to encourage them to change to renewable sources (British Columbia does this - it offsets payroll tax). Otherwise, higher carbon prices levels the playing pitch and lets renewables energy sources compete. I am surprised that you are so poorly informed and ignorant on the policy options.
    Last edited by owedtojoy; 26th February 2012 at 07:59 PM.
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  6. #11576
    Agnotologist Agnotologist is offline

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    Brazil was a bad example, andre Brazil ranks fourth according to Germanwatch, in its attention to CO2 emissions.
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  7. #11577
    Agnotologist Agnotologist is offline

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    Lurking in a petri dish in a laboratory in the Netherlands is an unlikely contender for the future of food. The yellow-pink sliver the size of a corn plaster is the state-of-the-art in lab-grown meat, and a milestone on the path to the world's first burger made from stem cells.

    Dutch scientist Mark Post holds samples of in-vitro meat grown in a laboratory. Credit: Francois Lenoir/Reuters.

    Dr Mark Post, head of physiology at Maastricht University, plans to unveil a complete burger — produced at a cost of more than $316,000 — this October.

    He hopes Heston Blumenthal, the chef and owner of the three Michelin-starred Fat Duck restaurant in Berkshire, will cook the offering for a celebrity taster as yet unnamed.

    The project, funded by a wealthy, anonymous, individual aims to slash the number of cattle farmed for food, and in doing so reduce one of the major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions.

    "Meat demand is going to double in the next 40 years and right now we are using 70% of all our agricultural capacity to grow meat through livestock," Post said.

    "You can easily calculate that we need alternatives. If you don't do anything meat will become a luxury food and be very, very expensive."

    The recipe for meat grown in the lab. Credit: The Guardian.

    Livestock contribute to global warming through unchecked releases of methane, a gas 20 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

    At the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Vancouver, Post said the burger would be a "proof of concept" to demonstrate that "with in-vitro methods, out of stem cells we can make a product that looks like and feels and hopefully tastes like meat".

    Post is focusing on making beef burgers from stem cells because cows are among the least efficient animals at converting the food they eat into food for humans.

    "Cows and pigs have an efficiency rate of about 15%, which is pretty inefficient. Chickens are more efficient and fish even more," Post said. "If we can raise the efficiency from 15% to 50% it would be a tremendous leap forward."
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  8. #11578
    Agnotologist Agnotologist is offline

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    Lurking in a petri dish in a laboratory in the Netherlands is an unlikely contender for the future of food. The yellow-pink sliver the size of a corn plaster is the state-of-the-art in lab-grown meat, and a milestone on the path to the world's first burger made from stem cells.

    Dutch scientist Mark Post holds samples of in-vitro meat grown in a laboratory. Credit: Francois Lenoir/Reuters.

    Dr Mark Post, head of physiology at Maastricht University, plans to unveil a complete burger — produced at a cost of more than $316,000 — this October.

    He hopes Heston Blumenthal, the chef and owner of the three Michelin-starred Fat Duck restaurant in Berkshire, will cook the offering for a celebrity taster as yet unnamed.

    The project, funded by a wealthy, anonymous, individual aims to slash the number of cattle farmed for food, and in doing so reduce one of the major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions.

    "Meat demand is going to double in the next 40 years and right now we are using 70% of all our agricultural capacity to grow meat through livestock," Post said.

    "You can easily calculate that we need alternatives. If you don't do anything meat will become a luxury food and be very, very expensive."

    The recipe for meat grown in the lab. Credit: The Guardian.

    Livestock contribute to global warming through unchecked releases of methane, a gas 20 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

    At the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Vancouver, Post said the burger would be a "proof of concept" to demonstrate that "with in-vitro methods, out of stem cells we can make a product that looks like and feels and hopefully tastes like meat".

    Post is focusing on making beef burgers from stem cells because cows are among the least efficient animals at converting the food they eat into food for humans.

    "Cows and pigs have an efficiency rate of about 15%, which is pretty inefficient. Chickens are more efficient and fish even more," Post said. "If we can raise the efficiency from 15% to 50% it would be a tremendous leap forward."

    Pass the Ketchup, Test-Tube Burger On the Menu Soon? | Climate Central
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  9. #11579
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    James Balog's TED talk on time-lapse photography as proof of extreme glacier decline. This is listed as one of 100 best TED talks.

    James Balog: Time-lapse proof of extreme ice loss - YouTube
    James Balog's time-lapse photography of melting ice sheets is now the subject of a documentary Chasing Ice, directed by Jeff Orlowski. It had its premiere last month at the Sundance Festival.

    Traveling with a team of young adventurers across the brutal Arctic, Balog risks his career and his well-being in pursuit of his biggest story facing humanity. As the debate polarizes America, and the intensity of natural disasters ramps up globally, Chasing Ice depicts a heroic photojournalist on a mission to deliver knowledge and the hopefulness towards changing our carbon-powered planet.
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  10. #11580
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Balog's TED talk:

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