Scrap VAT on bicycles

[alonso]

Bobert I wear a helmet when I cycle and inthe current climate in Dublin, people should. But it's a personal choice. We shouldn't need them. Other countries don't wear them because their environment is far more conducive to civilised road usage, unlike the battle for space we have in Dublin. you're sailing very close to the wind with your "blood on your hands" comment.Do you really believe that as a daily bike commuter I'm not aware of the risk and the danger? I deal with these most days of the week so don't even try to challenge my knowledge or awareness. Most cycle fatalities will not be resolved by armouring cyclists as you proposed. When your body is crushed under a blindly driven left turning truck at a badly designed junction no ************************************g amount of kneepads or helmets will save you!!!! The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to sort out the lethal junctions in our cities, remove dangerous roundabouts, put in advance stop lines everywhere etc etc. Also grasp the nettle and actually educate motorists and cyclists on how to deal with each other

I don't understand your point on being pulled over. My point is that the cyclist costs society next to nothing in accidents and a negligible amount in infrastructure. The National Cycle Strategy's targets will cause the same mode change away from car as the 18 billion spent on public transport in T21 for a tiny tiny fraction of the investment- that is a direct figure stated by Noel Dempsey at a recent lecture. Why should people whose actions benefit society be taxed more for that action? It's a ************************************g stupid idea

[Bobert]

Bobert I wear a helmet when I cycle and inthe current climate in Dublin, people should. But it's a personal choice. We shouldn't need them. Other countries don't wear them because their environment is far more conducive to civilised road usage, unlike the battle for space we have in Dublin. you're sailing very close to the wind with your "blood on your hands" comment.Do you really believe that as a daily bike commuter I'm not aware of the risk and the danger? I deal with these most days of the week so don't even try to challenge my knowledge or awareness. Most cycle fatalities will not be resolved by armouring cyclists as you proposed. When your body is crushed under a blindly driven left turning truck at a badly designed junction no ********* ********* amount of kneepads or helmets will save you!!!! The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to sort out the lethal junctions in our cities, remove dangerous roundabouts, put in advance stop lines everywhere etc etc. Also grasp the nettle and actually educate motorists and cyclists on how to deal with each other

I don't understand your point on being pulled over. My point is that the cyclist costs society next to nothing in accidents and a negligible amount in infrastructure. The National Cycle Strategy's targets will cause the same mode change away from car as the 18 billion spent on public transport in T21 for a tiny tiny fraction of the investment- that is a direct figure stated by Noel Dempsey at a recent lecture. Why should people whose actions benefit society be taxed more for that action? It's a ********* ********* stupid idea

Hurrah! He finally gets it! But, as for educating motorists to deal with cyclists, you may have heard of it, it's called the Driver Theory Test?

And cyclists should be taxed, have insurance and a license so that they contribute to the facilities they use (cycle lanes), be prepared for when they have accidents (unlike the twat who cycled in to me) and be qualified to cycle safely.

[alonso]

Bobert don't patronise me again. Any long term users of this site will know better than to doubt my knowledge on these issues, whether they agree with me or not on my actual opinions. The Driving Test does sod all to educate motorists on how to deal with cyclists other than "look out for them". There is no effort to instil into motorists the difficulties faced by cyclists or why they are even called "vulnerable road users". I also strongly advocate (on here before many times if you've ever read my posts on the issue, which I presume you haven't) formal cycling training in primary school, which is assessed. In other words no one gets into 2nd level without having passed a cycling test.

On tax, cyclists should not have to contribute to facilities which benefit society. More cycle lanes and cycle parking and improved junctions will save the country money, which they can THEN divert back into their maintenance. We already pay tax to Central Government and it is their duty to provide for us as we are part of the solution not the problem. But I can see this is a personal issue cos someone cycled into you so I'd rather not engage with you on it anymore. I've been pushed off the road by complete pr1cks driving cars, doesn't mean I hate all motorists.

Perhaps come back to me with a quick social cost per user comparison between the average cycle commuter and the average car commuter to justify your proposal that we be taxed

[Bobert]

Bobert don't patronise me again. Any long term users of this site will know better than to doubt my knowledge on these issues, whether they agree with me or not on my actual opinions. The Driving Test does sod all to educate on how to deal with cyclists other than "look out for them". There is no effort to instil into motorists the difficulties faced by cyclists or why they are even called "vulnerable road users". I also strongly advocate (on here before many times if you've ever read my posts on the issue, which I presume you haven't) formal cycling training in primary school, which is assessed. In other words no one gets into 2nd level without having passed a cycling test.motorists

On tax, cyclists should not have to contribute to facilities which benefit society. More cycle lanes and cycle parking and improved junctions will save the country money, which they can THEN divert back into their maintenance. We already pay tax to Central Government and it is their duty to provide for us as we are part of the solution not the problem. But I can see this is a personal issue cos someone cycled into you so I'd rather not engage with you on it anymore. I've been pushed off the road by complete pr1cks driving cars, doesn't mean I hate all motorists.

Perhaps come back to me with a quick social cost per user comparison between the average cycle commuter and the average car commuter to justify your proposal that we be taxed

There, that's what I'm talking about. I want cyclists to be educated. God but that was frustrating.

Roads benifit society, should I be exempt from tax?

[Pidge]

There, that's what I'm talking about. I want cyclists to be educated. God but that was frustrating.

Roads benifit society, should I be exempt from tax?

No, but that's not comparing like with like. Is your driving beneficial to society?

[alonso]

Bobert, it's been established for about 2 decades that road building has a detrimental impact on society - pollution, environemntal degradation and congestion. Yes the major cities should be linked by motorway to enable trade but any further silliness like upgrading the M50 before giving a rail alternative, or the M3 before the Navan rail line must become a thing of the past. Every time you turn the key in the engine you are doing a little bit of damage to society in some very small way and you should pay for what is actually a privilege not a right. The same is not true of hoppin on a bike. So no you shoudl not be exempt from tax

However, and this to me is a MASSIVE however - as car owners and motorists we should all pay according to our use. My car sits outside my house and doesn't move during peak hours and is seldom used at all during the working week. I should not pay for my car using the same mechanism as my neighbour who drives 2 hours a day in peak hours, in congestion. I believe in the polluter pays principle. But no politician will ever implement it. Not even Gormley.

Another massive however, as I alluded to earlier, is that we have built our entire island based on the supremacy of the private car and suburbs have mushroomed in the isolated countryside where there will never be another option than the private car. Perhaps road charging may be more just for these people rather than pay by use? I dunno but planning by the car and for the car has left Ireland in one big cul-de-sac with no room to turn around. Cycling, especially in large urban centres, and expecially for trips under 8 km would go a long way to alleviate these problems by creating a more attractive urban environemtn and leaving the roads free for those who need them, such as those with no choice about how they commute

[Bobert]

Bobert, it's been established for about 2 decades that road building has a detrimental impact on society - pollution, environemntal degradation and congestion. Yes the major cities should be linked by motorway to enable trade but any further silliness like upgrading the M50 before giving a rail alternative, or the M3 before the Navan rail line must become a thing of the past. Every time you turn the key in the engine you are doing a little bit of damage to society in some very small way and you should pay for what is actually a privilege not a right. The same is not true of hoppin on a bike. So no you shoudl not be exempt from tax

However, and this to me is a MASSIVE however - as car owners and motorists we should all pay according to our use. My car sits outside my house and doesn't move during peak hours and is seldom used at all during the working week. I should not pay for my car using the same mechanism as my neighbour who drives 2 hours a day in peak hours, in congestion. I believe in the polluter pays principle. But no politician will ever implement it. Not even Gormley.

Another massive however, as I alluded to earlier, is that we have built our entire island based on the supremacy of the private car and suburbs have mushroomed in the isolated countryside where there will never be another option than the private car. Perhaps road charging may be more just for these people rather than pay by use? I dunno but planning by the car and for the car has left Ireland in one big cul-de-sac with no room to turn around. Cycling, especially in large urban centres, and expecially for trips under 8 km would go a long way to alleviate these problems by creating a more attractive urban environemtn and leaving the roads free for those who need them, such as those with no choice about how they commute

Arguing with you is futile, I've presented a sensible and benifical tax system and you are outraged by it. And they call me right wing.

[alonso]

in this case arguing with me is futile because I am right and you have been unable to defend your daft inequitable proposal. I believe my last post was eminiently sensible - them what does the damage pay for it. Not rocket science

Good Day to you