Poorly qualified planners=sprawl,arbitrary planningdecisions

[patslatt]

In a chat with a person who is both an architect and town planner and works on a wide range of housing projects, I asked what caused the lack of housing density that led Dublin to sprawl into an area the size of Los Angeles. To my surprise,apparently poor qualifications of planners are an important factor.

It doesn't take much academic effort to qualify for a planning job in local government. Many planners do not understand good planning and housing architectural principles,so they don't know how to advocate a case against poorly planned ribbon developments.

Another result is arbitrary planning decisions that do not follow guidelines. Planners are doing their own thing. And junior planners are making decisions on applications submitted by experienced architects.

Poorly qualified planners also fail to provide clarity in planning regulations.
In the case of historic buildings such as Georgian houses, planning regulations have become so complicated that most home owners can't afford the planning process for rehabilitating a house. This will lead to either a decline in housing quality or illegal rehabs.

[clareman51]

When I applied for planning several years ago, the planner I dealt with turned out to have been a garden designer.

[socialdemocrate]

I went to a preplanning meeting and I was met by two girls who were in there work experience year in college. They honestly hadn't a cle. My knowledge of planning regulations was superior and i had only done a small bit of research.

[michael1965]

In a chat with a person who is both an architect and town planner and works on a wide range of housing projects, I asked what caused the lack of housing density that led Dublin to sprawl into an area the size of Los Angeles. To my surprise,apparently poor qualifications of planners are an important factor.

It doesn't take much academic effort to qualify for a planning job in local government. Many planners do not understand good planning and housing architectural principles,so they don't know how to advocate a case against poorly planned ribbon developments.

Another result is arbitrary planning decisions that do not follow guidelines. Planners are doing their own thing.

Poorly qualified planners also fail to provide clarity in planning regulations.
In the case of historic buildings such as Georgian houses, planning regulations have become so complicated that most home owners can't afford the planning process for rehabilitating a house. This will lead to either a decline in housing quality or illegal rehabs.

I think that's a little unfair. And it's completely ludicrous to blame planners for ribbon development. That is a direct consequence of our system of local government. Development plans are made by elected councillors, not by planners. In fact, the ridiculous thing is how planning law treats applications for one-off houses in exactly the same way as huge developments (like Sean Dunne's Ballsbridge scheme). If planners didn't have to spend as much time on the one-off applications, there would be more time to concentrate on the important work.

Also, where did this idea come from that Dublin is the same size as LA? It's nowhere near the size of LA.

[cactus flower]

In a chat with a person who is both an architect and town planner and works on a wide range of housing projects, I asked what caused the lack of housing density that led Dublin to sprawl into an area the size of Los Angeles. To my surprise,apparently poor qualifications of planners are an important factor.

It doesn't take much academic effort to qualify for a planning job in local government. Many planners do not understand good planning and housing architectural principles,so they don't know how to advocate a case against poorly planned ribbon developments.

Another result is arbitrary planning decisions that do not follow guidelines. Planners are doing their own thing.

Poorly qualified planners also fail to provide clarity in planning regulations.
In the case of historic buildings such as Georgian houses, planning regulations have become so complicated that most home owners can't afford the planning process for rehabilitating a house. This will lead to either a decline in housing quality or illegal rehabs.

I think that's a little unfair. And it's completely ludicrous to blame planners for ribbon development. That is a direct consequence of our system of local government. Development plans are made by elected councillors, not by planners. In fact, the ridiculous thing is how planning law treats applications for one-off houses in exactly the same way as huge developments (like Sean Dunne's Ballsbridge scheme). If planners didn't have to spend as much time on the one-off applications, there would be more time to concentrate on the important work.

Also, where did this idea come from that Dublin is the same size as LA? It's nowhere near the size of LA.

I agree that the standard of development control by planners is very uneven. Planners have to have a masters degree in planning to do the job. Their first degree could be geography, sociology or whatever. The standard of teaching in planning schools is questionable. Planners can be let loose to adjudicate on architect's designs only have had 6 weeks training on architecture / aethetics whereas the architect has had seven years. I think Cork County has got it right - they have far more involvement by the Council architects in planning decisions and advice.

The low density of Dublin is a legacy of the emigration years when the demand for land was very low. As land prices have rised so have densities. It is as simple as that.

[Pauli]

Where's alonso when you need him? I'm sure he has an opinion on this and, since this is his area of expertise, I'd like to hear it. I long believed that moronic and gombeen political interference was responsible for most of the dire planning Dublin has long been subjected to but I would defer to his superior knowledge.

[corkman2007]

It's long overdue that councillors had any role in the planning process taken off them. It's not the fault of planners that their decisions and recommendations are constantly undermined and ignored by politicians who gain votes (and other benefits!) by helping people to secure planning permission and rezonings against the advice of planners.

There's also a shortage of planning staff in most, if not all, local authorities.

[joel]

It's long overdue that councillors had any role in the planning process taken off them. It's not the fault of planners that their decisions and recommendations are constantly undermined and ignored by politicians who gain votes (and other benefits!) by helping people to secure planning permission and rezonings against the advice of planners.

There's also a shortage of planning staff in most, if not all, local authorities.

The problem there is that the councillors are ELECTED, the Planners aren't!

[corkman2007]

Exactly, and so long as they can win votes through making poor planning decisions they will. The track record of many councillors with regard to planning is terrible. There's no incentive for them to engage in proper planning either as the extra costs (in terms of infrastructure and provision of services) are largely borne by central government rather than having to be met by locally raised taxes.

If there was a system of local taxation in place, councillors would have to be careful with local taxpayers money and this would act as an incentive to pursue proper planning as poor planning wastes money.

[alonso]

Where's alonso when you need him?

Ah I was watchin the match. Now where to start!

In a chat with a person who is both an architect and town planner and works on a wide range of housing projects, I asked what caused the lack of housing density that led Dublin to sprawl into an area the size of Los Angeles. To my surprise,apparently poor qualifications of planners are an important factor.

It's down to the fact that up to recently most senior "planners" in local authorities were in fact engineers with no formal training in planning and urban design etc, plus absolutely no appreciation of the social dimension of their jobs. A formal planning school has only been in existence since the 70's I think, and the planning system dates from only 1963.

It doesn't take much academic effort to qualify for a planning job in local government. Many planners do not understand good planning and housing architectural principles,so they don't know how to advocate a case against poorly planned ribbon developments

In this country you required a primary degree, to pass an interview, and then get a Masters degree to qualify. In anyone's book that's quite a lot of academic effort. If you doubt the ability of planners to advocate the case against one-off housing and ribbon development, research my post history. And apologise

Now they are putting together undergraduate courses in DITs and universities. Lack of education is not the problem anymore. It's merely a case of allowing the dinosaurs in the system to shuffle off.

Another result is arbitrary planning decisions that do not follow guidelines. Planners are doing their own thing.

That's not true in most cases. Usually it's the members who tear up guidelines, especially in rural areas. In the cities, as we have seen in Ballsbridge recently, the planners have made poor decisions. But An Bord Pleanala exists to arbitrate on these matters.

Poorly qualified planners also fail to provide clarity in planning regulations.
In the case of historic buildings such as Georgian houses, planning regulations have become so complicated that most home owners can't afford the planning process for rehabilitating a house. This will lead to either a decline in housing quality or illegal rehabs.

Not really. All you have to do is apply for a declaration on what works are acceptable on protected structures. Would you rather we just allowed people to gut our heritage as they had up to recently?

When I applied for planning several years ago, the planner I dealt with turned out to have been a garden designer.

??? Had he/she any planning qualification? I went to college with a garden designer who turned to planning as a career change

I went to a preplanning meeting and I was met by two girls who were in there work experience year in college. They honestly hadn't a cle. My knowledge of planning regulations was superior and i had only done a small bit of research.

At this point I should draw your attention to Fianna Fail's embargo on recruitment in the public service swhich has led to insane situations like this. You'd think FF had some sort of vested interest in screwing with the development process

If planners didn't have to spend as much time on the one-off applications, there would be more time to concentrate on the important work

Precisely! The Local Authorities no longer "plan" their areas. Consultants do. Council planners are basically controllers of developments and facilitators of developers while keeping one eye on the antics of the elected members

Also, where did this idea come from that Dublin is the same size as LA? It's nowhere near the size of LA.

The commuter belt stretches over Leinster, the size of LA. WHat the comparison fails to account for is the fact that LA is a contiguous urban blob whereas Leinster is not.

The standard of teaching in planning schools is questionable. Planners can be let loose to adjudicate on architect's designs only have had 6 weeks training on architecture / aethetics

There is a lack of formal design training in Irish Planning. However archictecture is always a matter of taste and difficult to teach the control of aesthetics formally. As an example I strongly object to U2's Clarence Proposal. I think it is nothing more than an assault on the integrity of the quays and a disgraceful butchering of Essex Street. However the elected member of DCC who posts here supports it. In relation Dunne towers I would have come to a very different decision to both DCC and the elected members. Both parties were wrong imo, and I hope the Bord come to the right conclusion

The low density of Dublin is a legacy of the emigration years when the demand for land was very low. As land prices have rised so have densities. It is as simple as that.

I wouldn't necessarily agree. The worldwide trend towards lower densities stemmed from the conditions of 19th and early 20th century overcrowding. We had Model industrial towns, Garden Cities and the UK new towns trying to straddle urban and rural. Ireland simply jumped on the bandwagon with the Dublin western new towns et al

I long believed that moronic and gombeen political interference was responsible for most of the dire planning Dublin has long been subjected to but I would defer to his superior knowledge.

True in many cases, especially during the years of corrupition. However planners have been responsible for some horrific decisions as well,

It's long overdue that councillors had any role in the planning process taken off them. It's not the fault of planners that their decisions and recommendations are constantly undermined and ignored by politicians who gain votes (and other benefits!) by helping people to secure planning permission and rezonings against the advice of planners.

There's also a shortage of planning staff in most, if not all, local authorities

.

It's long overdue that councillors are compelled to train themselves in the planning process. I don't advocate removal of democracy from the system. We should aim to improve the skills of the members instead.

Anyone see that Primetime
Coiuncillor Hugh McIlvaney (FG) Monaghan "Sure what would I know about planning". SF's Matt McCarthy was no better.

The problem there is that the councillors are ELECTED, the Planners aren't!

So are Martin Cullen and Dick Roche