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Thread: No Warming Since 1995 - Jones?

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    Politics.ie Regular Akrasia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombo View Post
    No I expect non-partisan objectivity. I expect cirtical thinking not advocacy.

    The Cimategate email reveals those players with th curtain pulled back.
    Amazing contradiction there. You expect objectivity, yet you regularly pretend that 'climategate' demonstrates some kind of systemic fraud.

    If you're interested in objectivity and honesty, what is your opinion of this deconstruction of the journey the -gate stories take before they end up in the 'mainstream media'.
    Recent propaganda by Richard North who has broke so many of the '-gate' inventions such as 'amazongate', a blatant example of deliberate misinformation and lies by professional lobbiests and ideologically driven media personalities (dellingpole for the telegraph and Leake for the times)
    Bogus claims and the threat to the Amazon
    On January 25th, North published a post on his blog in which he dredged up one suspicious-looking claim made by the IPCC. On page 596, the second Working Group report had stated that “40% of the Amazon forests could react drastically to even a slight change in precipitation”, potentially being replaced by “ecosystems that have more resistance to multiple stresses caused by temperature increase, droughts and fires, such as tropical savannas”. Again, the reference given was to a WWF report – in this case a Global Review of Forest Fires by a policy analyst, Dr PF Moore, and a journalist and campaigner, Andy Rowell. Apparently unable to find the information given by the IPCC in WWF’s report, North wrote:

    “The assertions attributed to them, that “up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation” is nowhere to be found in their report. … Nor elsewhere can we find any other reference to 40 percent of the Amazon being affected by even slight reductions in precipitation.”

    Yet the fourteenth page of WWF’s report had stated exactly that. “Up to 40% of the Brazilian forest is extremely sensitive to small reductions in the amount of rainfall”, the report noted.

    Nevertheless, North went to town, declaring the unearthing of “Amazongate”. He accused the IPCC of making “false predictions on the Amazon rain forests”; of producing “a complete fabrication”; stated that “the IPCC has grossly exaggerated the effects of global warming on the Amazon rain forest”; that it “wanted to hype up crisis” by “making an assertion unsupported by the “science” it holds as so important”.

    The allegation was quickly repeated by a sympathetic blogger on the fringes of the mainstream media, James Delingpole of the Telegraph – himself a frenetic climate change denier and far-right conspiracy theorist (he has recently stated that mainstream climate scientists “are part of a global conspiracy to expand” the state – apparently on the basis of no evidence whatsoever). Delingpole eagerly posted the story on his blog, declaring “AGW [man-made global warming] theory is toast.”

    A few days later, the story found its way onto the news pages of the Times, via reporter Jonathan Leake. “UN climate panel shamed by bogus rainforest claim”, the story’s headline declared, its first paragraph telling readers the IPCC’s statement on the Amazon was “based on an unsubstantiated claim”. The last line of the article leaves us in no doubt as to its source: “Research by Richard North”.

    But it soon emerged that the claim was far from bogus. If anything, in fact, the 40% estimate may have been understated. Simon Lewis, a researcher into tropical forests at the University of Leeds, was quoted by Leake as criticizing WWF’s report. Yet Lewis had already informed Leake that the IPCC’s statement got it right. As BBC journalist Roger Harrabin quoted Lewis:

    “The IPCC statement is basically correct but poorly written, and bizarrely referenced.

    “It is very well known that in Amazonia, tropical forests exist when there is more than about 1.5 metres of rain a year, below that the system tends to ‘flip’ to savannah.

    “Indeed, some leading models of future climate change impacts show a die-off of more than 40% Amazon forests, due to projected decreases in rainfall.

    “The most extreme die-back model predicted that a new type of drought should begin to impact Amazonia, and in 2005 it happened for the first time: a drought associated with Atlantic, not Pacific sea surface temperatures.

    “The effect on the forest was massive tree mortality, and the remaining Amazon forests changed from absorbing nearly two billion tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere a year, to being a massive source of over three billion tonnes.”

    As Lewis made clear in correspondence, the problem was not with the accuracy of the IPCC’s statement, which reflected the peer-reviewed scientific literature – but with the reference that had been attributed to it. The issue had in fact already been dealt with in the report of Working Group I (on “The Physical Science Basis” of climate change), which had got the references right. Did Leake’s article accurately reflect Lewis’ views? “Absolutely not.”

    Lewis, it turns out, had sent both Leake and Harrabin the same email. But while Harrabin had included Lewis’s comments on the IPCC’s accuracy in his BBC piece, Leake simply ignored them. Instead, he seems to have invented his own, more congenial version of reality. “4000-page report makes insignificant referencing error” is admittedly a rather less powerful headline – even if it does possess the distinct advantage of being true.

    More astonishingly, as science blogger Eli Kintisch revealed, Leake had been told exactly the same thing by Dan Nepstad – author of a 1999 Nature paper cited by WWF, and others that back up the IPCC on the Amazon – two days before his story was published. As Nepstad had written to Leake:

    “At the time of the IPCC [report], there was ample evidence that a large portion of the Amazon forest is very close to the lower limit of rainfall that is necessary to sustain dense forest. We published an article in 1994 in Nature in which we estimated that approximately half of the forests of the Brazilian Amazon were periodically exposed to severe drought and soil moisture depletion, especially during El Nino events.”

    As Nepstad later wrote in a public statement on the affair:

    “The IPCC statement on the Amazon is correct, but the citations listed in the Rowell and Moore report were incomplete. (The authors of this report interviewed several researchers, including the author of this note, and had originally cited the IPAM website where the statement was made that 30 to 40% of the forests of the Amazon were susceptible to small changes in rainfall). Our 1999 article (Nepstad et al. 1999) estimated that 630,000 km2 of forests were severely drought stressed in 1998, as [WWF authors] Rowell and Moore correctly state, but this forest area is only 15% of the total area of forest in the Brazilian Amazon. In another article published in Nature, in 1994, we used less conservative assumptions to estimate that approximately half of the forests of the Amazon depleted large portions of their available soil moisture during seasonal or episodic drought (Nepstad et al. 1994). After the Rowell and Moore report was released in 2000, and prior to the publication of the IPCC AR4, new evidence of the full extent of severe drought in the Amazon was available. In 2004, we estimated that half of the forest area of the Amazon Basin had either fallen below, or was very close to, the critical level of soil moisture below which trees begin to die in 1998. This estimate incorporated new rainfall data and results from an experimental reduction of rainfall in an Amazon forest that we had conducted with funding from the US National Science Foundation (Nepstad et al. 2004). Field evidence of the soil moisture critical threshold is presented in Nepstad et al. 2007.”

    To give him some credit, Leake’s “bogus” headline has now been changed – though his “unsubstantiated” accusation remains. Meanwhile, things have gone full circle: the story is being cited in its original form on the website of climate deniers – and mining industry front-group – the Global Warming Policy Foundation, replete with the added credibility its status as a Times story gives it.

    While it is wholly unsurprising that the denial lobby should be attempting to push baseless and misleading stories to the press, what is surprising is the press’s willingness to swallow them. In this case, two experts in the relevant field told a Times journalist explicitly that, in spite of a minor referencing error, the IPCC had got its facts right. That journalist simply ignored them. Instead, he deliberately put out the opposite line – one fed to him by a prominent climate change denier – as fact. The implications are deeply disturbing, not only for our prospects of tackling climate change, but for basic standards of honesty and integrity in journalism.
    ?AmazonGate?: how the denial lobby and a dishonest journalist created a fake scandal Climate Safety
    (apologies for the long quote, it is all relevant and copyrighted under the creative commons)
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    Amazing contradiction there. You expect objectivity, yet you regularly pretend that 'climategate' demonstrates some kind of systemic fraud.

    If you're interested in objectivity and honesty, what is your opinion of this deconstruction of the journey the -gate stories take before they end up in the 'mainstream media'.
    Recent propaganda by Richard North who has broke so many of the '-gate' inventions such as 'amazongate', a blatant example of deliberate misinformation and lies by professional lobbiests and ideologically driven media personalities (dellingpole for the telegraph and Leake for the times)

    (apologies for the long quote, it is all relevant and copyrighted under the creative commons)
    Climategate shows clearly the small and tightly knit group of people who between them a virtual stranglehold on all institutions ranging from the IPCC (Trenberth/Jones), massive amounts of public funding (Jones/Schmidt/Mann), the peer review process (all) and media.

    Realclimate is the natural habitat of a number of them.

    ETA:

    Check out the latest reprehensible behaviour of these supposed professional scientists at Realclimate.

    http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/20...ke-to-lie.html
    Last edited by Tombo; 15th February 2010 at 05:18 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    Only empirical evidence?

    I guess the rapid deteoriation of ice sheets and glaciers doesn't count as empirical?

    When ice sheets that have taken tens of thousands of years to form collapse in a matter of a few decades, you can be pretty sure that this is not just normal everyday 'natural variability'
    There is as much sea ice on the planet today as there ever was.

    People make erroneous attribution when they sea large scale natural phenomena.

    Here is a classic. Remember the Wilkins ice sheet destroyed by global warming? Well, there has been second thoughts...

    Here is how you and your ilk start clucking and fretting back 12 months ago:

    Antarctic ice shelf half the size of Scotland on verge of collapse | World news | The Observer

    A huge ice shelf in the Antarctic is in the last stages of collapse and could break up within days in the latest sign of how global warming is thought to be changing the face of the planet.
    Evil "deniers" were pilloried for suggesting there might be a natural explanation.

    Well, being a little more patient and "scientific" often leads to surprises. the case may not be closed:

    :: SCRIPPS OCEANOGRAPHY NEWS : : Antarctic Ice Shelf Collapse Possibly Triggered by Ocean Waves, Scripps-led Study Finds ::

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombo View Post
    Climategate shows clearly the small and tightly knit group of people who between them a virtual stranglehold on all institutions ranging from the IPCC (Trenberth/Jones), massive amounts of public funding (Jones/Schmidt/Mann), the peer review process (all) and media.

    Realclimate is the natural habitat of a number of them.
    The fact RealClimate had the 'scoop' on the climategate emails and instead of allowing the public to read them chose instead to immediately take them down off their site in an effort to suppress the information shows exactly the mentality of the fundamentalists running that quasi-religious cult like site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombo View Post
    What are you on?
    He's on Planet Reality. The "it's the sun" fable is a famous and deeply obvious hoax, because the activity of the solar cycles is totally out of synchronisation with the recorded temperatures.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Tombo is not interested in science. Only in pissing in the corn flakes of anyone who looks like a "green, communist, anarchist" etc and if we have to do without science for that, so be it. It's not even politics, just childish rage.
    "But do 'climategate' revelations justify the sceptics’ claims that this is “the final nail in the coffin” of global warming theory? Not at all. They damage the credibility of three or four scientists. They raise questions about the integrity of one or perhaps two out of several hundred lines of evidence."

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWDFzWt-Ag"]YouTube- 8a. Climate Change - supplement[/ame]
    Here is an excellent exposure of the lies of the Daily mail

    pay close attention to his demonstration of the meaning of 95% significance in statistics (the dice bit)
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

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    Yeah, like I said, the Mail's headline is a flat lie.

    And refusing to use information before 1995 is only for the insane or the deceitful. So that's the deniers then!
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    What it does demonstrate though is that Prof Jones is incapable of deliberate dissembling. Anyone with the slightest political nuance would have known precisely how his answers would be manipulated and been more careful to expand his commentary to prevent manipulation. This is the man that has been perpetrating a two decade fraud according to the deniers.
    "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." - Chapman Cohen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imokyrok View Post
    What it does demonstrate though is that Prof Jones is incapable of deliberate dissembling. Anyone with the slightest political nuance would have known precisely how his answers would be manipulated and been more careful to expand his commentary to prevent manipulation. This is the man that has been perpetrating a two decade fraud according to the deniers.
    His Q&A session is absolutely car-crash stuff. He hasn't the political nous to be an Ogra FF member.
    Never let the best be the enemy of the good.

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