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Thread: 2009 2nd warmest year on record

  1. #101
    Politics.ie Regular Akrasia's Avatar
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    (went to the trouble of writing this post, http://www.politics.ie/environment/1...upiswrong.html It would be nice to get a chance to actually discuss it)
    Anthony Watts has been on a crusade against climate scientists for years now through his website, wattsupwiththat.org and his surfacestations.org

    The former is just a propaganda site where deniers gather to propagate myths and lies about global warming science, the latter is supposed to be a scientific blog that catalogues poorly located weather stations and alledges that climate records are incorrect because of the 'urban heat island effect' and he lists examples of weather stations located nearby to ventilation pipes or in urban areas where the natural weather data may be compromised by the surroundings.

    The central premise of this project is that climate scientists do not take into account these artificial factors which are leading to a warming bias in the records.

    Well, a peer reviewed paper published in the Journal of Geophysical Research in August 2009 and revised in December last year, explored this issue in detail in order to do some actual experimental science and find out if there was in fact a warming bias from these poorly located weather stations.


    Results indicate that there is a mean bias
    associated with poor exposure sites relative to good exposure sites; however, this bias is
    consistent with previously documented changes associated with the widespread conversion to
    electronic sensors in the USHCN during the last 25 years. Moreover, the sign of the bias is
    counterintuitive to photographic documentation of poor exposure because associated instrument
    changes have led to an artificial negative (“cool”) bias in maximum temperatures and only a
    slight positive (“warm”) bias in minimum temperatures
    .....
    ....Adjustments applied to USHCN Version 2 data largely account
    for the impact of instrument and siting changes, although a small overall residual negative
    (“cool”) bias appears to remain in the adjusted maximum temperature series
    Read that again, the bias from these poorly located stations is actually tilted towards a cooling bias rather than a warming one.

    Step forward Anthony Watts, you have done the world a service, you have uncovered evidence that shows that global warming might actually have been slightly underestimated due to a bias in the temperature record.

    As a true sceptic, I'm sure he will be delighted that his work has been tested and that it has led to an advancement in climate science.


    5. Conclusion
    Given the now extensive documentation by surfacestations.org (Watts [2009]) that the
    exposure characteristics of many USHCN stations are far from ideal, it is reasonable to question
    the role that poor exposure may have played in biasing CONUS temperature trends. However,
    our analysis and the earlier study by Peterson [2006] illustrate the need for data analysis in
    establishing the role of station exposure characteristics on temperature trends no matter how
    compelling the circumstantial evidence of bias may be. In other words, photos and site surveys
    do not preclude the need for data analysis, and concerns over exposure must be evaluated in light
    of other changes in observation practice such as new instrumentation.

    Indeed, our analysis does provide evidence of bias in poor exposure sites relative to good
    exposure sites; however, given the evidence provided by surfacestations.org that poor exposure
    sites are predominantly MMTS sites, this bias is consistent with previously documented changes
    associated with the widespread conversion to MMTS-type sensors in the USHCN. Moreover,
    the bias in unadjusted maximum temperature data from poor exposure sites relative to good
    exposure sites is, on average, negative while the bias in minimum temperatures is positive
    (though smaller in magnitude than the negative bias in maximum temperatures).
    The highlighted section shows the difference between science, and propaganda. Watts showing pictures of weather stations and then leaving the viewers to come to their own conclusions that they must be skewing the temperature record in a certain direction is an example of propaganda, it is not science, especially if they keep doing the same thing after their issues have been addressed and investigated.

    Watts has never conducted his own comparative study comparing the bad stations with the good and seeing if there was a negative or positive temperature bias. That is the natural step that he should take if he truly believes in his own theory rather than simply dismiss this study outright for some political reason

    Full report is available here
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/u...e-etal2010.pdf
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharper View Post
    If you have a heatwave the desire for ice cream goes up but people who cannot afford ice cream or are unwilling to pay for it do not purchase ice cream.

    I don't know what the heck kind of school teaches that ability and willingness to pay is anything other than an integral part of demand. You've simply repeated your assertion that they don't and have provided nothing to support such a claim, meanwhile you've simply dismissed the sources I provided as being "wrong".

    I'd suggest revisiting the wikipedia pages I linked (the claims on them are well sourced). If it's been a long time since you studied this topic then it's quite easy to forget core concepts and form erroneous conclusions based on half remembered details.

    Its not an assertion its the theory of supply and demand.Its not my fault it sounds confusing.Every school teaches it.You are right an increase/decrease in desire does increase/decrease demand.But price doesn't.It isn't an important distinction when you are discussing ice creams but it is when discussing whole economies.On a demand and supply curve changing the price only changes the amount of the good demanded or supplied.Things that change 'demand' for a good, and shift the demand curve, include for example, substitute goods,government intervention in the market, fashion trends (your 'desire' element), technological advances and changes in demand for goods that are linked.For example if the government gave everybody 1000 to go buy a car then demand for car insurance would go up.Demand is not dependent on price , only the quantity demanded is.Not a big issue really, just a poor choice of words by the heads who came up with all this craic.

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    And in the energy business, demand = the amount of energy requested at a precise point in time. Isn't the english language wonderful in the diversity of meanings available for many words.
    Regards, Pat Gill

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiannafailure View Post
    And in the energy business, demand = the amount of energy requested at a precise point in time. Isn't the english language wonderful in the diversity of meanings available for many words.
    Dead right, the confusion is that 'demand' refers to aggregate demand not individual demand.If oil was 1 or 1000000/barrel someone would buy it.

  5. #105
    Politics.ie Regular Akrasia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    Its not an assertion its the theory of supply and demand.Its not my fault it sounds confusing.Every school teaches it.You are right an increase/decrease in desire does increase/decrease demand.But price doesn't.It isn't an important distinction when you are discussing ice creams but it is when discussing whole economies.On a demand and supply curve changing the price only changes the amount of the good demanded or supplied.Things that change 'demand' for a good, and shift the demand curve, include for example, substitute goods,government intervention in the market, fashion trends (your 'desire' element), technological advances and changes in demand for goods that are linked.For example if the government gave everybody 1000 to go buy a car then demand for car insurance would go up.Demand is not dependent on price , only the quantity demanded is.Not a big issue really, just a poor choice of words by the heads who came up with all this craic.
    You're after completely contradicting yourself there

    There is no distinction between 'demand' and 'quantity demanded'.
    Demand is the word in economics for the quantity that will be consumed at a given price. Supply is the quantity that will be supplied at a given price, equilibrium is the price where the same quantity of goods are demanded as are supplied.
    You can move along the demand curve or you can shift the demand curve, none of that changes the initial point I was making, that if the price of oil comes down, even if there is a reduction in overall demand for oil, the same amount will be consumed. It is just a shifting in the demand curve to a lower price point to clear the supply of oil on the market, it doesn't mean that there will be warehouses of oil piling up because nobody wants to buy it

    If demand was independent of price, on the demand curve graph, demand would be a a horizontal line straight up from the x axis, that is not a demand curve for anything but the most inelastic of goods imaginable in a utopia where everyone has exactly the same amount of disposable income

    All demand curves look at least a little bit like this
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    it doesn't mean that there will be warehouses of oil piling up because nobody wants to buy it
    I have to say, this thread was one of the more shocking ones I've read in this forum recently. I mean I generally expect all sorts of crazy scientific claims to be made here but I generally assume most of those same people have a reasonable grasp on economics (which is what's driving their skepticism in the first place).

    Now I discover many posters don't even understand market signals or commodity markets in general and they think consumption is the one and only driver of supply.

    Maybe I shouldn't be that surprised but I am.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    You're after completely contradicting yourself there

    There is no distinction between 'demand' and 'quantity demanded'.
    Demand is the word in economics for the quantity that will be consumed at a given price. Supply is the quantity that will be supplied at a given price, equilibrium is the price where the same quantity of goods are demanded as are supplied.
    You can move along the demand curve or you can shift the demand curve, none of that changes the initial point I was making, that if the price of oil comes down, even if there is a reduction in overall demand for oil, the same amount will be consumed. It is just a shifting in the demand curve to a lower price point to clear the supply of oil on the market, it doesn't mean that there will be warehouses of oil piling up because nobody wants to buy it

    If demand was independent of price, on the demand curve graph, demand would be a a horizontal line straight up from the x axis, that is not a demand curve for anything but the most inelastic of goods imaginable in a utopia where everyone has exactly the same amount of disposable income

    All demand curves look at least a little bit like this
    If there was no distinction between 'demand' and 'quantity demanded' then what is the blue line on your graph?..the blue line is 'demand'..the x-axis is 'quantity demanded'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    If there was no distinction between 'demand' and 'quantity demanded' then what is the blue line on your graph?..the blue line is 'demand'..the x-axis is 'quantity demanded'.
    And so we descend into the insanity again! The reason you can read the "quantity demanded" off that graph is because the blue line is just a curve drawn through a set of points, each of which has two coordinates - "quantity demanded" and "price". There is no third piece of information on the graph - there are only those two.
    Never let the best be the enemy of the good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharper View Post
    I have to say, this thread was one of the more shocking ones I've read in this forum recently. I mean I generally expect all sorts of crazy scientific claims to be made here but I generally assume most of those same people have a reasonable grasp on economics (which is what's driving their skepticism in the first place).

    Now I discover many posters don't even understand market signals or commodity markets in general and they think consumption is the one and only driver of supply.

    Maybe I shouldn't be that surprised but I am.

    sharper

    There are thousands of economists that do not understand commodity markets and their drivers, the word driver is used in both senses.

    A market signal is usually unmistakable, nobody wants to buy your house for example, however if you reduce the price and it sells, then that is a market signal to your neighbours.

    A market floor imposed by legislation could be interpreted as a market signal and that artificial floor could drive the commodity markets in a certain way.

    What effect that would have on an economy is an open question.

    Akrasia

    There is not a lot to be said about wattsupwiththat is there
    Regards, Pat Gill

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    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    And so we descend into the insanity again! The reason you can read the "quantity demanded" off that graph is because the blue line is just a curve drawn through a set of points, each of which has two coordinates - "quantity demanded" and "price". There is no third piece of information on the graph - there are only those two.
    Hello ibis, sorry that is not right either.The third piece of information is 'demand' for that good.That is why you draw graphs..to get more information.As you can see from the graph if you put the price up you change the q that will be bought.Thats all you do ,you dont shift the position of the blue line..demand stays the same.If you introduce another factor eg another good that does the same job but at a lower price you will need to draw another blue line..you have changed demand.

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