Survey-new movement

[west'sawake]

The problem with experts is that their were a lot of experts and businesspeople involved in the resent boom to bust which has led to the recession who will bail them out when they get it wrong the next time i presume you have thought that one out???

One of the best Ministers for Finance we ever had, Ray MacSharry, did not, I'm told, even have the equivalent of his Junior Certificate. It seems a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing the expert suffering the tyranny of too many choices, knowing too much and falling between too many stools. Our present Minister for Finance has an Oxbridge first, I rest my case.

A philosophy professor, ironically one with a doctorate, once said, if you want a stupid idea to become a reality, just put the letters PhD after your name and it will happen. Look at all the so called experts on all those quangoes that the Govt have sub contracted the country out to.

[Mario007]

Hi Mario, I asked how old you were because your post reflects a youthful thus inexperienced view of society.

It's good to see young people showing an interest in politics even though to my mind you're sadly right wing.

Maybe before you set up your movement for world domination you should get your hands dirty. Join a few community and voluntary groups in your area. Talk to people outside your usual social circle. Find out what effect some of your ideas would have on real people. At 18 you can spare a few years for research.

i agree it is a bit naive and maybe inexperienced but i still stand by it, though i would agree it needs a bit more fleshing out.
whats wrong with the right wing? we need some youths going right as well, with all the young socialist around

nice tittle for the movement thanks i might use it
thanks for the suggestion about the community groups etc, i certainly will do, now that i'll start college i'll have much more than when i was doing the leaving cert and also quite a lot more opportunities. in fact the reason why i put the ideas forward here, is to get people's feedback, and see which ideas have any chance of surving.

Can adults join?

yeah there is no restriction, all i was saying with my comment about students was that the ideas might appeal to students more both due to my age and due to the student community being my Alma mater.

[Mario007]

.



when you have experts leading the goverment as i suggested they are controlled by the politicians. the dail has to approve of every meassure, so thats the mechanism to use to check that they dont get it wrong. but really to be honest there is a less of a chance of an expert economist, lets say, to make a mistake than someone who has no knowledge of the field and has just been promoted to the department from, say, agriculture.



18

The vast majority of expert economists got it wrong for the last number of years would you include Dan McGloughlin in your list perhaps a list of your experts would be a good idea lets see then we can judge them from their record[/QUOTE]

yes the past record would be very important. as i said i do not know any names right now, i would have to do a lot of research into the field to shortlist candidates even for the Taoiseach.
with regards to the economists getting it wrong, there were many economist arguing little state intervention and the eu listened to them and we ended up feeling pain for half a year and are now recovering along with the usa but dont have a huge new trillion dollar debt.

One of the best Ministers for Finance we ever had, Ray MacSharry, did not, I'm told, even have the equivalent of his Junior Certificate. It seems a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing the expert suffering the tyranny of too many choices, knowing too much and falling between too many stools. Our present Minister for Finance has an Oxbridge first, I rest my case.

A philosophy professor, ironically one with a doctorate, once said, if you want a stupid idea to become a reality, just put the letters PhD after your name and it will happen. Look at all the so called experts on all those quangoes that the Govt have sub contracted the country out to.

with regards to brian lenihan, he did study at trinity and at cambirdge, but he studied law. therefore, although i actually like lenihan, he shouldnt be running ministry for finance. same with brian cowen before, he was also educated in law.
as i said earlier in this reply the education wouldnt be the decissive factor, but rather the past record along with the education

[An Gilladaker]

The vast majority of expert economists got it wrong for the last number of years would you include Dan McGloughlin in your list perhaps a list of your experts would be a good idea lets see then we can judge them from their record

yes the past record would be very important. as i said i do not know any names right now, i would have to do a lot of research into the field to shortlist candidates even for the Taoiseach.
with regards to the economists getting it wrong, there were many economist arguing little state intervention and the eu listened to them and we ended up feeling pain for half a year and are now recovering along with the usa but dont have a huge new trillion dollar debt.

Then a bit of research will be needed before you can advance your arguments when will you report back

[clonycavanman]

2. Flat rate of tax. Introduce a flat rate of tax across the board on all taxable items. This way some taxes will drop, others will increase. The main advantage of this system is that it is very simply and a flat rate is proved to reduce tax fraud, as people generally don't bother putting in the work to avoid tax payments anymore. The decreased tax on incomes allows for more money for the citizen, which he can spend on goods, on which VAT will be taxed, giving the state more money in VAT payments and other such taxes and also supporting production and increasing employment ie more money for the state from new income taxes.

8. .... The contract would include also clause of the minimal time the company has to be in Ireland, and not pack off to other country at the earliest opportunity. This would enhance the competitiveness yet again.

No 2. Reduced Taxes for All! Why did no-one else think of it? You will be the most popular Irish politician since James Larkin.
Get Real- the taxpayers (yes, the suckers on PAYE) have to pay through the nose for the next ten years for bank bailouts, developer digouts, NAMA, innumerable overlapping quangos, legal aid absurdities; and many other foolish and unrepented policies.

No 8. How will that be enforced? Will you have a law that will force parent companies abroad to keep funding their Irish subsidiaries, and forbid them going into administration- or we'll send the F111s round?
I don't think you've grasped what 'globalisation' and 'small open economy' actually means. 'We' have sh*te-all say in what any multinational chooses to do.

Some of these ideas need worked up a wee bit.

[belfast]

Hey everybody! I'm just trying to get a new political movement or a faction moving and I would like to ask you what do you think of its ideas and the ten point plan it has. It would be a capitalist right wing movement, as I believe there is a gap in the public representation on the right, since FF or FG are more center based. The movement would be aimed at the middle-class people, business people but particularly, in the early stage, at the intelligentsia and students since I will be going to college next year and it will be much easier to get its ideas across. (this does not rule out having members from other classes, its just a prediction, an estimate). Thanks

Here's the plan:

1. Have a political system where the government is made up off top experts in their field, not TDs. The Taoiseach, who also would be a top expert, would be nominated by the coalition that will form within the Dail, and he will then pick out his cabinet. The cabinet will have to be approved by the Dail, along with its program. This will make the cabinet apolitical, which means it will take decissions that will be good for the country, as based on their analitical expertise, not on the popular demand. Since every law will have to pass the Dail, this will ensure that that people's wishes will be still listened to. Also since TDs have the power to produce new bills and acts in the Dail, it will but greater pressure on them from their electorate, who will demand that they shall draft out these bills.

Your plan places to much trust in experts. In the courts both defence and the sate can provide exert to come to very different conclusion about the same evidence.

"The Taoiseach, who also would be a top expert" in what ?

cabinet apolitical is not going to work in Ireland.

What you are suggesting seems to be a separating executive and legislative branches of government.

to do that you would need to make the President an executive office and and replace the function of the Taoiseach.

2. Flat rate of tax. Introduce a flat rate of tax across the board on all taxable items. This way some taxes will drop, others will increase. The main advantage of this system is that it is very simply and a flat rate is proved to reduce tax fraud, as people generally don't bother putting in the work to avoid tax payments anymore. The decreased tax on incomes allows for more money for the citizen, which he can spend on goods, on which VAT will be taxed, giving the state more money in VAT payments and other such taxes and also supporting production and increasing employment ie more money for the state from new income taxes.

Making the tax system simplier is not a bad plan. Not sure you will get rid of tax fraud. The only way to get rid of tax fraud is to get rid of tax.

3. Reduced social welfare benefits, not payments. By this I mean things like the state granting people money to pay for heating or rent. Also the jobseekers allowence would be reduced to 60% or 70% of the minimum income, encouraging people to go to and find a job. Jobseekers benefit will remain the same.

reducing welfare all seem like good idea to me. better yet phase it out.

4. A complete reform of the education system, with continuous assessment rather than one exam to determine your life. This would include a change in the primary education as well, where children would also be assessed annually, with a greater selection of subject to increase the level of knowledge between the children in primary sector, which is among the lowest in the EU.

I think that reform at a more basic level is need.

5. A foreign policy that supports the EU and the integration and well being of the EU members. This would include following the path of the Lisbon Treaty. A vital part for this would also be to create great exchange schemes for students in the secondary schools. On these exchanges they would gain the knowledge of other European cultures and hopefully will learn to accept them.

We have had too much integration already. not sure where the money is going to come for exchange schemes for students in the secondary schools.

6. Reduced minimal wage by the value of deflation. This would allow a greater competitiveness to the Irish workforce and would not damage the people, due to the deflation.

Better abolish the minimal wage. Let the market deicde wages.

7. Selling off some semi state companies, such as the ESB, that the state doesn't need. In the case of ESB the state doesn't need it to regulate the prices of electricity as the state can still regulate the prices through Board Gais, which makes owning both companies a luxury that we can't afford at the moment..

The state get out of the business sell electricity is not a bad idea. Hope they do a better job selling it than with eircom.

8. Use the money from selling of semi state companies to finance stimuli that would attract new companies to Ireland. This would include reaching a deal with the company that the state would make such and such contribution towards the company for a workplace that it'll create in Ireland. The contract would include also clause of the minimal time the company has to be in Ireland, and not pack off to other country at the earliest opportunity. This would enhance the competitiveness yet again. .

We have had too much stimuli already. if there is any money it should be used to pay off the national Debt.
Instead if give money to companies to come here and them tell they cannot leave for x years, do not give them any money and let them come and go as they please.

9. Make a great audit of the public service sector, axing all the incompetent and inefficient agencies that have been created in the public sector, to save money, and also to send the message that public service sector is not a sector from which you can't be fired or your wages reduced.

you will have a fight on you hand with that one.

Sir Humphrey Appleby always wins.
http://www.jordalgar.com/ministre/16-humphrey1.jpg

The only thing you can do with the public sector is to close it down. not uch cnace either way.
we would need to go bankrupt first.

10. Reducing the role of the unions. I'm not saying the unions are bad, or that they are to be completely destroyed, but their influence has grown to a radically high level right now.

I am not one normally to defend Unions, but they main influence in in the public sector and social partnership.
This is a problem with special interest groups not just unions. social partnership needs to be closed down , these unelected groups should not be able to influence government policy.
Just picking on the unions will not solve the problem.

Your economic seem to be not unlike Mrs thatcher. a mixture of Keynesian economics union bashing (always fun) some bit of spend less state money on welfare and the public sector and give more stimuli to private companies (corporatism).

I like new ideas in politics, but this seem to be a reheated bits and pieces of from different schools of thought that do not hang together.

Do not lose hope.
Maybe you next plan may stand a better chance a least you are thinking about the problem.

I recommend Austrian school economics instead of Keynesian school economics.

The idea of separating the executive and legislative branches of government is a sound one.

Have look at the Libertarian Party if you want soome new idea to change things.

in the uk http://lpuk.org/ in America http://www.lp.org/

Age should not stop you.

Jonathan Krohn 13 Year Old Conservative
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGownQ2PzdI"]YouTube - Book TV: Jonathan Krohn 13 Year Old Conservative[/ame]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Krohn

if you want to change ideas you need influence. The way this has been done it the past is thought think thanks.
Think_tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_tank

Ludwig von Mises Institute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute
http://www.mises.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason_Foundation
http://www.reason.com/

the Fabian society being a very successful example in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

[Mario007]

No 2. Reduced Taxes for All! Why did no-one else think of it? You will be the most popular Irish politician since James Larkin.
Get Real- the taxpayers (yes, the suckers on PAYE) have to pay through the nose for the next ten years for bank bailouts, developer digouts, NAMA, innumerable overlapping quangos, legal aid absurdities; and many other foolish and unrepented policies.

No 8. How will that be enforced? Will you have a law that will force parent companies abroad to keep funding their Irish subsidiaries, and forbid them going into administration- or we'll send the F111s round?
I don't think you've grasped what 'globalisation' and 'small open economy' actually means. 'We' have sh*te-all say in what any multinational chooses to do.

Some of these ideas need worked up a wee bit.

see the flat rate of tax will allow for those people that are earning money to retain more for themselves. This can lead to two things, either the employer will slash their wages and will have enough profit made to diversify or to extend production. This would bring more people to work, balancing the hole thats created by the flat rate of tax. The second scenario is that the employer doesnt cut the wages and so the employee has more money to spend. And we all know that when we have more money to spend we make sure to spend them. This increases demand, production and bring money back to the state by means of increased revenue from VAT or by the increased production which requires more workforce.
btw why would you mention larkin? i thought larkin would be more for the progressive tax system that we use right now

the enforcing of it is very easy. as the state gives the company the stimulus for the job places it creates, it does it in terms of a contract. And in this contract the company agrees to stay in the country for x years...effectively what happens is that the goverment pays the company for the job place created for at least x years.

both of the above are measures used to increase the compatibility of ireland in the international market. i do get globalization and small open economy...these measures are already in use in most of the small countries in europe that depend on the multinational companies to come to their country provide employment

yes the past record would be very important. as i said i do not know any names right now, i would have to do a lot of research into the field to shortlist candidates even for the Taoiseach.
with regards to the economists getting it wrong, there were many economist arguing little state intervention and the eu listened to them and we ended up feeling pain for half a year and are now recovering along with the usa but dont have a huge new trillion dollar debt.

Then a bit of research will be needed before you can advance your arguments when will you report back

yes, i get what you mean...will do...by tommorow i'll have a shortlist of a few candidates for the spot of Taoiseach(hypothetically), hopefully

[Mario007]

Your plan places to much trust in experts. In the courts both defence and the sate can provide exert to come to very different conclusion about the same evidence.

"The Taoiseach, who also would be a top expert" in what ?

cabinet apolitical is not going to work in Ireland.

What you are suggesting seems to be a separating executive and legislative branches of government.

to do that you would need to make the President an executive office and and replace the function of the Taoiseach.



Making the tax system simplier is not a bad plan. Not sure you will get rid of tax fraud. The only way to get rid of tax fraud is to get rid of tax.



reducing welfare all seem like good idea to me. better yet phase it out.



I think that reform at a more basic level is need.



We have had too much integration already. not sure where the money is going to come for exchange schemes for students in the secondary schools.



Better abolish the minimal wage. Let the market deicde wages.



The state get out of the business sell electricity is not a bad idea. Hope they do a better job selling it than with eircom.



We have had too much stimuli already. if there is any money it should be used to pay off the national Debt.
Instead if give money to companies to come here and them tell they cannot leave for x years, do not give them any money and let them come and go as they please.




you will have a fight on you hand with that one.

Sir Humphrey Appleby always wins.
http://www.jordalgar.com/ministre/16-humphrey1.jpg

The only thing you can do with the public sector is to close it down. not uch cnace either way.
we would need to go bankrupt first.



I am not one normally to defend Unions, but they main influence in in the public sector and social partnership.
This is a problem with special interest groups not just unions. social partnership needs to be closed down , these unelected groups should not be able to influence government policy.
Just picking on the unions will not solve the problem.

Your economic seem to be not unlike Mrs thatcher. a mixture of Keynesian economics union bashing (always fun) some bit of spend less state money on welfare and the public sector and give more stimuli to private companies (corporatism).

I like new ideas in politics, but this seem to be a reheated bits and pieces of from different schools of thought that do not hang together.

Do not lose hope.
Maybe you next plan may stand a better chance a least you are thinking about the problem.

I recommend Austrian school economics instead of Keynesian school economics.

The idea of separating the executive and legislative branches of government is a sound one.

Have look at the Libertarian Party if you want soome new idea to change things.

first off thanks for all those links, i will be sure to read through them tonight.

my trust in the experts is really a manifestation of being fed up of purely political decisions that are being taken mostly by the governments that do nothing good for the country, hinder it, if anything just to please the electorate.
the Taoiseach would be probably the one of the most respected figures in Ireland in the field of representation/economics...like the head the central bank, for example(though of course right now, there isnt much faith in the banks)...something along those lines.
i was thinking about the change to the powers of the president, where the president would actually replace Taoiseach's powers and the Taoiseach would rather be responsible for the work of the cabit as an effective unit, but I'm still trying to figure out how would that work

the money for the exchanges would be gotten from the eu, actually...there is already a fund for this from which money can be obtained, just not many people use it or know about it...

i was thinking of abolishing the minimum wage, but i think that would alienate a lot of people(see yet again, a purely political decission, instead of the making the right one)

i disagree with the stimuli, i think we need to make ireland a more competitive country and one of the ways is the stimuli. i would also propose grants for small businesses and technology grants which would be financed from cutting the social welfare...

yes i know the public sector is very hard to clean up, alas one must try

good idea about the special interst groups as well...i suppose the reason why i picked unions is that they're most visible, mistake on my part.

i do not know much about keyne apart from the fact that he argued increased spending during the great depression and somewhere i heard his ideas led to the welfare state being established in britain after ww2.

yet again thanks, when i come up with something new i'll make sure to come back to you