Whats holding the Irish left back?

[Duth Ealla]

I earlier today engaed in a brief discussion with two leftist posters while discussing different issues. They both used some fairly standard phrases from the left lexicon - "controlling the factors of production" and talking about "Capital". However, as a lefty myself, I groaned to read both phrases. To me they represented the total abdication of analysis and development that the left has allowed itself to wallow in.

I proposed a set of scenarios to them both where i tried to demonstrate that both phrases, and the rigidity associated with them, were actually redundant when it came to building a left alternative in the modern world.

I am arguing that the Left's weakness is its continued inability to stress test its own philosophy and ideas against the modern world and reject whats inconsistent or plainly illogical thats holding it back.

The electorate wont vote for illogical positions, rigidity of thought, or positions that are held as holy unquestionable truths. I think the left, as a movement, is currently finding itself in that paradox. While we may think its not important to resolve how the people in the suggested scenarios might react to the lefts langauge we should. Because they, or there real life equivalents, are clearly making up their minds and writing us off as rigid, dogmatic and out of touch. Seeing as how we all share the one goal of actually building a fair society maybe its time we sort ourselves out.



My Set of Scenarios was as follows

a chara you mention Capital and previously today I listed a set of situations that I felt demonstrated how inappropriate such language is for another poster to consider. He had mentioned "controlling the factors of production". Its quite similar to your use of the word Capital.
Can you see how each of these people below who might all be the poorest in society would actually be regarded as the oppressors in you philosophy.

I'd appreciate your consideration on them.

My post was:
Own and control the means of production - ie land, labour, capital, enterprise. So a small farm with 40 acres of poor land is someone who owns and controls one of the means of production. I'd love to know who he is exploiting. Seeing as how he is probably on half the wage of an exploited factory worker he might not agree. Still in such a broad class definition he is quickly caught up and generalised to one side. Just like one poster did in another thread.

Or what about a plumber, carpenter etc who use their factor of production - their skill - to secure wealth for themselves. They are firmly in control of that factor of production. God knows they exploit sometimes but I wouldn't lambast a plummer as a class enemy. Aren't plummers working class still?

Or picture an Indian immigrant in Britain who set up a corner shop. Little did he know that the right would dislike him for being an immigrant and the left would label him a bourgeios pig whose control of the factors of Land and Labour (the shop keeper might just say his neighbour who works part time on saturday). Screwed both ways eh.

I actually agree with your sentiments though. Currently society is geared towards profiting the top tier at the expense of those who play by the rules.

I just dont think the argument can be won by talking about controlling the factors of production. if we though the Right were bad for hearkening back to Reagan and nazi thatcher then how bad is the left going back to the 19th century. The Factors of Production argument was valid in the 19th century but its not relevant today. To use it today leads to some strange situations whereby those we seek to support would be defintion be seen as exploiters. Such an easy chink for the right to exploit.

There is still exploitation god thats clear but it aint going to ended by appealing to voters in the 19th century.

Thats why I am so frustrated by many on the Irish left. Its a unrelenting barrage of poorly thought out nonsense dressed up with a few words like capital and factors of production to make it sound like its real economics. If i didnt actually care about the welfare of irish people and creating a more equal dignified society then I wouldnt be so exercised by this pap. But unfortunately those on the left who lazily assume positions that are neither consistent or even worse not even thought out are the ones stopping the building of a fairer Ireland. Harsh but unfortunately true. Its like the left does not have the mind set to be anything other than in opposition.
Post ends

Any lefties care to contribute on the notion that we are, as a branch of the political spectrum, failing to slay our own sacred cows to our detriment and at the cost of building the Ireland we want to see?

[Tressell]

I don't know which Soviet your coming from, but I don't hear many on the doorsteps, right or left wing, talking about Capital, methods of production, or means of transfer. Now if your talking about finance, jobs and wages, well thats a different matter Maybe if you spoke in english for the proletariat, you might get your questions answered or your point across.

PS is the Irish left back, John O Shea.

[Paddylekker]

I came in to this thread thinking that Kevin Kilbane had been arrested.

[Muskerry Sportsman]

Duth Ealla

I am surprised to hear about all that leftie navelgazing especially given where you come from.

[Question R24U]

kevin kilbane (paddy beat me to it)

But left wingers in ireland suffer the same problem as their worldwide brethern - irrelevance. Except its worse here as the trade unions are far too weighted in favour of public sector power who have curried too much favour with the governing party. They sold out and represent the most cosied of all employees to the detriment of low paid private sector ones.

[stannis]

What's holding the Irish left back?

Its lack of public support.

[Duth Ealla]

I don't know which Soviet your coming from, but I don't hear many on the doorsteps, right or left wing, talking about Capital, methods of production, or means of transfer. Now if your talking about finance, jobs and wages, well thats a different matter Maybe if you spoke in english for the proletariat, you might get your questions answered or your point across.

PS is the Irish left back, John O Shea.

Steady on gaffer. I aint from no soviet. I am referring a discussion I had with two socialists today on this site who both used those terms. one of them said I raise the points on a differnet thread. I though a few others might like to add their two pennies.



Muskerry - where do I come from and why could i not engage in lefty navel gazing as a result.

[Tiernanator]

lack of relevance to the Irish people and sectarian in fighting.

[islands]

What's holding the Irish left back?

I think it's called Rio Ferdinand ....

[Frankie Lee]

Lack of resources I think, if the Socialist Party had the money to field the same amount of candidates as Labour I'm sure they would pick up as much seats. The fact that they can only afford to run candidates in Dublin and the odd one in Cork is not good enough.

I'm convinced they could pick up a lot of seats in town councils across the country if they ran the candidates.