Whats holding the Irish left back?

[goosebump]

What's holding the left back?

The electorate. Deal with it.

[cactusflower]

I would differ with Trotsky on many levels but agree with the basic philosophy of improving the lives of ordinary workers. Communism does not appeal to me because it does not necessarily guarantee that workers will benefit if complete control of an economy is placed in the hands of politicians. It hasn't done so far.

This is what I mean by the damage that Stalinism has done. No, there is no guarantee that our next attempts at introducing communism will work out the way we want, but there is an absolute certainty that capitalism is going to mean continued unemployment, starvation, poverty and war for millions of people.

[Edo]

Keeping it short.

Stop talking down to the electorate and start talking to them in language they can understand and stop dismissing the hoi-polloi who vote for FF as a bunch of uneducated brain dead numpties would probably help too.

Also - stop wasting your time and energy attacking Fine Gael and dreaming that if disappeared tomorrow morning all your problems would be over - I know its great craic messing with the YFGer heads around here and you probably get great satisfaction from it - but as regards progress towards your final goal - its about as useful as tits on a bull - FG is a centre right moderate conservative party that is rising in the polls with a reinvigorated and young membership - FF is a moth eaten collapsing left of centre cheese board of various populist hues - do I have draw the diagram for yis?

Also - most importantly - you have to be able to tell people how you will make things better for them tomorrow -them personally - not dragging down everybody to a worse off tomorrow - people vote mostly on optimism - that next year will be better than this year and they and their family will be on the road to a better off tomorrow - its a basic human instinct and aspiration - and whether you like it or not - everybody aspires to be middleclass or upperclass or the financial equivalent and that no barriers should be put in their way to legally getting there - a meritocracy - if you work hard - you will be rewarded - those that are passengers on your work will not be.

All this b^lloxology about class war and neutralising the well off etc etc goes down great in the Student Union and among the embittered underclass who never help themselves- but when people start paying their own bills and have their own children and start to acquire and desire the better things in life - things change.

Over to you folks

[Barry]

The ideological stranglehold the capitalist system has over people is whats holding the left back.

Socialist ideology cant be propagated like bourgeois ideology can.

People's values, opinions, understanding and thoughts are already set from a young age before they even hear a socialists argument.

For example most believe humans are "naturally greedy". I mean, where the hell do they get that from?

Its certainly not factual.

Peoples views and opinions tend to reflect the society in which they live and this is where they get such ideas. So when people grow up and live in a society where social relations create greed in people - they assume greed is natural - rather than questioning the social relations which create it.

So even on one single aspect such as this - to convince people otherwise is extremely difficult.

For answers to your question, check out these explanations:
Dominant ideology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cultural hegemony - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Propaganda model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Antonio Gramsci - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Socialists have to change the ideology and consciousness of the people radically. RADICALLY. Its no easy task.

I dont think running in elections, giving out flyers and making posters will change things thats for sure.

If it took a brave minority to change the Irish people's national consciousness by staging an easter rising - then I think such actions would be needed to change people's consciousness towards their class.

[cactusflower]

Keeping it short.

Stop talking down to the electorate and start talking to them in language they can understand and stop dismissing the hoi-polloi who vote for FF as a bunch of uneducated brain dead numpties would probably help too.

Also - stop wasting your time and energy attacking Fine Gael and dreaming that if disappeared tomorrow morning all your problems would be over - I know its great craic messing with the YFGer heads around here and you probably get great satisfaction from it - but as regards progress towards your final goal - its about as useful as tits on a bull - FG is a centre right moderate conservative party that is rising in the polls with a reinvigorated and young membership - FF is a moth eaten collapsing left of centre cheese board of various populist hues - do I have draw the diagram for yis?

Also - most importantly - you have to be able to tell people how you will make things better for them tomorrow -them personally - not dragging down everybody to a worse off tomorrow - people vote mostly on optimism - that next year will be better than this year and they and their family will be on the road to a better off tomorrow - its a basic human instinct and aspiration - and whether you like it or not - everybody aspires to be middleclass or upperclass or the financial equivalent and that no barriers should be put in their way to legally getting there.

All this b^lloxology about class war and neutralising the well off etc etc goes down great in the Student Union and among the embittered underclass who never help themselves- but when people start paying their own bills and have their own children and start to acquire and desire the better things in life - things change.

Over to you folks

Good point. We're in for a difficult time irrespective of which political system we're under for the next while, but we need to know we're heading somewhere worth getting to.

The last few years have been unreal. Because of the amount of cheap credit on offer the feeling was there for a lot of people that they were wealthy and were going to stay wealthy. That didn't have substance and the battle is on now over who is going to pay for it.

[HughinBandon]

Originally posted by cactusflower:
This is what I mean by the damage that Stalinism has done.

You can't deny that Stalin severely damaged the Western view of Communism but you also have to admit that Capitalism fully exploited the Stalin era for their own propoganda. The fact of the matter is that Capitalism, on a global level, is far more destructive than Stalinism ever was.

[Barry]

Another VERY interesting theory is this one here, though there's very little info on the internet about it bar wikipedia. Its called system justification:

System justification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dsmythy]

Their inability to listen to counter arguments. Also their inability to listen to each other's arguments.

[Edo]

Another VERY interesting theory is this one here, though there's very little info on the internet about it bar wikipedia. Its called system justification:

System justification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Barry - Im going to be as nice as I can here

Will You all take your heads out of your posteriors , come down out of your ivory towers and go out and talk to people-

not the type of people who agree with everything you say - but a broad section of humanity.

Just as a matter of interest - how many of those here are actually out canvassing for a socialist/left candidate? - or is the choice available too tainted for your high ideals? - the next 3 weeks out canvassing doorsteps where you have no control on the person you will meet would be highly educational IMHO.

[HughinBandon]

Originally posted by Edo:
All this b^lloxology about class war and neutralising the well off etc etc goes down great in the Student Union and among the embittered underclass who never help themselves- but when people start paying their own bills and have their own children and start to acquire and desire the better things in life - things change.

There's so much Right Wing propoganda in that paragraph. You must be very open to suggestion.