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  1. #101
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I didn't. Social welfare fraud is wrong. It's effectively theft and robs money from the provision of essential services. Why not target those engaged in it?


    Or those who abused the Section 110 provision? Has he a view on that? Or on how it appears that redacted made a tidy multi million tax free profit on that Stephen's Green profit by setting himself up as an ICAV? All facilitated by FG legislation. Little concern for precious public funds, there...
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  2. #102
    DaveM DaveM is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    Who is rushing to increase taxation? I hear some voices calling for increased employment taxes and increased taxes on MNCs. Then I see others - predominantly FG - looking to increase indirect taxes in the form of "charges". FG allowed billions in property profits to go effectively untaxed, and there were calls to increase those taxes, by the likes of Donnelly.

    Oh, and Varadkar is a man who uses very divisive language and who clearly sees a "them and us" Ireland. I think some of his rhetoric is potentially very damaging, and that any apparent softening of it is on the advice of PR consultants.
    The point I'm making is that the demographic that are seeing 52% of a sizeable portion of their pay deducted each pay are not being spoken to by anyone else. 52% is a high marginal rate and it kicks in at a relatively low threshold. These are the tax arrangements which were introduced during the crash. I'm not advocating a complete roll back or anything like it. However I'm equally saying that these taxpayers, like many others, are entitled to a reasonable expectation of some relief over the coming years if conditions continue to ease. Listening to all the other parties they are very much at the back of the queue and in many cases spending increases are being advocated that simply cannot be delivered without further revenue raising measures.

    That's not to say that we don't need tax reform to prevent corporations taking advantage because we do and there have been failings in that regard, both in the property market and elsewhere. I'm not going to defend anyone on that and in time I expect some pretty shocking truths will emerge about what has gone on in NAMA in particular.

    As for a "them and us" Ireland I don't think Varadkar holds a candle to some others in the Dáil in that regard. The difference is that he also speaks up for nett contributors where others are solely interested in courting the votes of nett recipients. Both interests are valid however in this country we seem to oscillate from one extreme to the other.
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  3. #103
    DaveM DaveM is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    A potential future Taoiseach should see his potential demographic as more than those who might vote for him.
    Firstly a line minister tackling fraud in his area of responsibility is a good thing.

    Secondly he's a politician doing what every politician without exception does. Trying to appeal to potential voters. When one of his policies can help do that then why not trumpet it?

    Politics requires a dose of cynicism. Idealistic intentions can only get you so far.
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  4. #104
    DaveM DaveM is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    Or those who abused the Section 110 provision? Has he a view on that? Or on how it appears that redacted made a tidy multi million tax free profit on that Stephen's Green profit by setting himself up as an ICAV? All facilitated by FG legislation. Little concern for precious public funds, there...
    Which was plain wrong and you won't find me defending it.
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  5. #105
    statsman statsman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by an modh coinniolach View Post
    You breeze over this issue a bit quickly as though the process of selecting and defining social categories is in some way self-evident or possible to achieve without a level of ideological under-pinning.

    There are at least two issues in this regard. The first is the use of slippery categories such as class or ethnicity. For example, it seems to me that Eric Olin Wright's reworking of class categories, to include modern working conditions such as precarity, would provide a sounder basis than traditional Weberian ones.

    Moreover, even the relative importance of those categories will change depending on the politics of the day. For example, an opinion on issues like Corporation Tax, privatisation, free-trade or agricultural subsidies might be as easily shaped by sector of employment as class. Given that politics is a moving target an important category one week may be less so at another point.

    In a separate issue, you've also managed to ignore or downplay the performative aspects of opinion polls. The first aspect in the collection of data e.g. 'shy Tories'. The second in the way polls rather than policy decisions or politicians' actions become the focus of political reporting - as though it is generally accepted that grubby political calculation can and should trump what are effectively moral choices. This was particularly noticeable in recent reporting on the issues faces by the Gardaí and politicians' reactions to those.
    I agree that it's not perfect, and, perhaps foolishly, I assumed a certain level of political sophistication among those posters who would be interested enough to read a long OP.

    Nevertheless, the fact remains that representative sample opinion polls are the least bad way we have of gauging public sentiment on political matters short of a general election, once you read them correctly and don't mistake them for things they aren't.
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  6. #106
    hollandia hollandia is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by statsman View Post
    I agree that it's not perfect, and, perhaps foolishly, I assumed a certain level of political sophistication among those posters who would be interested enough to read a long OP.

    Nevertheless, the fact remains that representative sample opinion polls are the least bad way we have of gauging public sentiment on political matters short of a general election, once you read them correctly and don't mistake them for things they aren't.
    That's the point I'm making about trends. At the very least, as most polls have an MOE of 3% either way, a rolling average at the very least should be used rather than a stand alone poll. Nonetheless, some people who understand this will still troll a poll thread to death. The polls also, whilst being a snapshot, also indicate the direction of movement when looked at in the round. And to come back to a point you made sometime back, for the last year there really has been nothing to see. FG and Lab have moved very little, if at all, whilst FF and SF have recorded growth on average, it is modest growth. Nothing more, nothing less. We're going to need to see something altogether earth shattering before we get any real movement. The parties are becalmed.
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  7. #107
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Which was plain wrong and you won't find me defending it.


    Would never have expected that you would, sir.

    But that deal alone was met with silence from the man who would be Taoiseach and would have us believe that he is concerned about public funds (or taxpayers' money, as he likes to describe it)
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  8. #108
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    The point I'm making is that the demographic that are seeing 52% of a sizeable portion of their pay deducted each pay are not being spoken to by anyone else. 52% is a high marginal rate and it kicks in at a relatively low threshold. These are the tax arrangements which were introduced during the crash. I'm not advocating a complete roll back or anything like it. However I'm equally saying that these taxpayers, like many others, are entitled to a reasonable expectation of some relief over the coming years if conditions continue to ease. Listening to all the other parties they are very much at the back of the queue and in many cases spending increases are being advocated that simply cannot be delivered without further revenue raising measures.

    That's not to say that we don't need tax reform to prevent corporations taking advantage because we do and there have been failings in that regard, both in the property market and elsewhere. I'm not going to defend anyone on that and in time I expect some pretty shocking truths will emerge about what has gone on in NAMA in particular.

    As for a "them and us" Ireland I don't think Varadkar holds a candle to some others in the Dáil in that regard. The difference is that he also speaks up for nett contributors where others are solely interested in courting the votes of nett recipients. Both interests are valid however in this country we seem to oscillate from one extreme to the other.

    People who are unemployed through no fault of their own, and would love nothing more than to have a job, have made the biggest contribution of all...100% of potential income. They are arguably the biggest nett contributors of all...but they are excluded from having a voice, through this constant refrain of "taxpayers' money".

    Incidentally, I pay a fortune in income tax, but I don't want to be included in this group of people known as taxpayers. I'm a citizen and part of society, who happens to be fortunate to have employment and a duty to pay tax.

    Bigger conversation, I guess...
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  9. #109
    statsman statsman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollandia View Post
    That's the point I'm making about trends. At the very least, as most polls have an MOE of 3% either way, a rolling average at the very least should be used rather than a stand alone poll. Nonetheless, some people who understand this will still troll a poll thread to death. The polls also, whilst being a snapshot, also indicate the direction of movement when looked at in the round. And to come back to a point you made sometime back, for the last year there really has been nothing to see. FG and Lab have moved very little, if at all, whilst FF and SF have recorded growth on average, it is modest growth. Nothing more, nothing less. We're going to need to see something altogether earth shattering before we get any real movement. The parties are becalmed.
    I'm constantly reminded of Boehm's cone of uncertainty when polls are being discussed.
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  10. #110
    ergo2 ergo2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by statsman View Post
    I'm constantly reminded of Boehm's cone of uncertainty when polls are being discussed.


    Down here in the West we speak of little else
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