Government considers extending Dail vote to non-nationals

[stringjack]

And I don't in the case of people who retain their citizenship of another state (excluding, provisionally at any rate, individuals who have dual nationality). I think that making political choices that are binding on all citizens of a particular nation-state is not compatible with voluntarily retained citizenship of another state.

You're asserting that, but you're not really explaining your reasoning (and, yes, dual citizenship/nationality threatens to enter the argument very soon).

I think the fact of their continued citizenship of another state is evidence of a lack of commitment to this state.

I gleaned that much from your previous post. However, since 'commitment' seems to me to be an essentially psychological affair, it's possible that one could be 'committed' to the Irish state long before one could become a citizen. Equally, one could be a citizen and lack any commitment to the state.

Regardless, my contention is that agreeing to be bound by the collective decisions of a society is a sufficient commitment to earn a franchise in that society (assuming one is allowed to take up residence in the society in the first place). Residency takes care of the necessary commitment for most decisions, and I reserve a commitment like citizenship for a few, very fundamental decisions. Your position, if we take it seriously, seems to commit us to saying that non-citizens should have no more right to vote at local elections than at general elections.

[madura]

Numbers of what people?
Polish & Chinese?

This particular discussion concerns citizens of other EU countries only, that is to say, voters who might be less likely than, say, Burmese people to take out Irish citizenship.

If we apply a particular principle to granting voting rights we have to apply it fairly regardless of numbers involved. I know numbers can affect the ballot. Was there not in recent memory an attempted coup on some island, Caribbean or Indian Ocean?, where the 'immigrant' population had overtaken the 'native' population and were in a position to elect an 'immigrant' led government.
I know there are problems with reciprocal voting arrangements because what about China or Burma or Saudi Arabia where citizens don't have the right to vote but in these cases people can take out irish citizenship.

[madura]

I think the fact of their continued citizenship of another state is evidence of a lack of commitment to this state.

I gleaned that much from your previous post. However, since 'commitment' seems to me to be an essentially psychological affair, it's possible that one could be 'committed' to the Irish state long before one could become a citizen. Equally, one could be a citizen and lack any commitment to the state.

Well, by using the fact of citizenship to exclude voters, this state could avoid involving itself in nebulous psychological testing or indeed calculations about length of residency.

Regardless, my contention is that agreeing to be bound by the collective decisions of a society is a sufficient commitment to earn a franchise in that society (assuming one is allowed to take up residence in the society in the first place). Residency takes care of the necessary commitment for most decisions, and I reserve a commitment like citizenship for a few, very fundamental decisions. Your position, if we take it seriously, seems to commit us to saying that non-citizens should have no more right to vote at local elections than at general elections.

Actually I'm quite happy with the status quo and the degree of political participation currently being offered. I don't think it warrants any concern about dual or competing allegiances. That said, I acknowledge that the basis for an entitlement to vote that you have outlined is persuasive and takes account of a lot of the difficulties involved. Just not all, from my perspective.

[Catalpa]

Just watched the clip from Q&A now and was pleasantly surprised at the reaction of the panel.

Olwyn Enright stated pretty clearly that Citizenship should be part of the deal - as I take it she speaks with the authority of her Party on this then this is a hopeful sign.

Martin Cullen blew me away though - he pretty well put clear blue water between himself and Conor Lenihan's proposal. But he did even better stating that [Immigration] was the biggest issue facing us and that IIRC 'that Blocks making their Culture equal' to the Irish was not on.

Caroline Kennedy 'agreed with the Minister'.

Ronan Mullen wanted them to have the vote and surprise surprise Ivana agreed with the idea too.

Hopefully common sense is beginning to gel at Cabinet level on this one.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1022/qanda_ ... 5,null,230