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  1. #41
    MacCoise2 MacCoise2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Exactly.

    In Ireland the people voted for Pro-European Government. In Greece they voted for a Pro-European Government. In Spain they voted for a Pro-European Government. In France they voted for a Pro-European Government. In the Netherlands they voted for a Pro-European Government. Everyime the people of Europe have been asked to vote for a new government since this crisis began they have always given one answer. That they want a strong united Europe and that they reject parties that promise easy ways out.
    This "Pro-European", anti-European thing really is disgusting. Its like the racists in america saying Obama is anti-American, its code and every knows what it means....
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  2. #42
    Skypeme Skypeme is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by True Republican View Post
    does that mean a grand coalition between the liberals and labour? Wilders has obviously been shown up as an economic illiterate as well as the socialists.
    That deal is already done, more or less, in late April, the two governing coaltion parties, VVD and CDA negotiated a deal to introduce a pretty severe austerity programme to reduce the national deficit in 2013 to below 3% of GDP. Its likely that PvdA's Diederik Samsom's will now form part of the government but favours 'stimulus' measures ala Hollande.

    So its pretty much Right-Left coalition and remains to be seen how long it will last when the cuts start to bite. This grouping of "Merkel-Hollandites' will probably also end up, like ourselves, being run by the Dutch version of Liberty Hall.

    Euro-skeptic parties such as the PVV opposed the severity of the proposed measures, Wilders and PVV are probably just as well to hold tight on the opposition 'benches'.
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  3. #43
    Clanrickard Clanrickard is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thac0man View Post
    I concur. However I do wonder what caused the Freedom Party to have this reverse? A rejection of their core principles seems unliklely, its xenophobia is still very much an issue of interest in the Netherlands. The Freedom Party is like other small parties that emerged as powerful fringe groups during the boom years. But now the boom is over ans we are firmly in bust, is the Freedom Parties lack of platform or understanding of economics a cricial factor in its set back?
    The Freedom Party have moved legitimate questioning of Holland's open door free-for-all immigration policy to centre stage. They lost seats because Wilders had a weak economic platform but his siren warning of uncontrolled immigration and the lack of integration of immigrants especially from Turkey and North Africa have gone mainstream. Before he and Fortuyn came on the scene anyone questioning immigration would have been shouted down as racist.
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  4. #44
    Justinian Justinian is offline

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    An interesting part of this election, nay, about the formation of the government is that the queen has essentially been sidelined. The lower house is taking the lead and has appointed a liberal (a minister in the current government and, obviously, a member of the VVD) to talk to party leaders and perhaps paint a first picture of possible coalitions.

    The lower house has attempted this before in the past and failed at it. They had to turn back to the queen to see them through the forming of the government.
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  5. #45
    McDave McDave is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard View Post
    So much for the famous Dutch getting tough on this bailout business. Like good little sheep they vote the same shower back in.
    Yep, voters are 'Sheeple' when Phobies don't get their way. So much for respect for democracy.

    Not that the Dutch give much of a toss for whackjob Euro-hating extremism. As they amply demonstrated yesterday.
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  6. #46
    socmonster socmonster is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by McDave View Post
    Yep, voters are 'Sheeple' when Phobies don't get their way. So much for respect for democracy.

    Not that the Dutch give much of a toss for whackjob Euro-hating extremism. As they amply demonstrated yesterday.
    I like the way you assume that Labour and VVD got so many seats because they were 'pro-European'. Do you not think they got elected because of domestic issues and promises?
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  7. #47
    Justinian Justinian is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by socmonster View Post
    I like the way you assume that Labour and VVD got so many seats because they were 'pro-European'. Do you not think they got elected because of domestic issues and promises?
    Europe was one of the main themes and subjects of the campaign.
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  8. #48
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Exactly.

    In Ireland the people voted for Pro-European Government. In Greece they voted for a Pro-European Government. In Spain they voted for a Pro-European Government. In France they voted for a Pro-European Government. In the Netherlands they voted for a Pro-European Government. Everyime the people of Europe have been asked to vote for a new government since this crisis began they have always given one answer. That they want a strong united Europe and that they reject parties that promise easy ways out.
    The Spanish election was about the domestic economic mismanagement of the previous govt relative to the success of the previous Popular Party govts. It had little/nothing to do with Europe as there is nothing to separate any of the national parties on it. The Greek election was a roughly 50:50 split and owed more to the fear of the people rather than the will of the people. The Dutch election was about who would become PM and so - as in 2007 - the small parties were squeezed. You read too much into things.
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  9. #49
    Justinian Justinian is offline

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    The Dutch election was about who would become PM and so - as in 2007 - the small parties were squeezed.
    Historically there are 3 parties that do very well in the Netherlands: VVD (liberals), PvdA (labour), and CDA (Christian Democratic Appeal). For example there were elections in 1981, 1982, 1986 and 1989. Those three parties all had 20 seats or more in any of those elections, Labour and CDA even having gotten over 50 seats each in the 1986 elections. D66 is the only other party in those elections that managed to get past 10 seats and that wasn't even in all those elections.

    In 1994 D66 got over 20 seats, but it was still smaller than any of the big three and again the only other party that managed to get past 10 seats in parliament. 1998 saw D66 decline to 14 seats and the rise of GreenLeft to 11 seats. These were the only parties that managed to get past 10 seats excluding the big three.

    2002 saw the rise of the Pim Fortuyn List which got 26 seats and became the 2nd largest party in the Netherlands. CDA got 40 seats in those elections. VVD and Labour had 24 and 23 seats respectively. The only other party to even reach 10 seats was GreenLeft, all other parties had less than 10 seats.

    2003 again saw just 3 parties with more than 10 seats: CDA, PVDA and VVD. The first two having more than 40 seats each. 2006 saw the SP get around 25 seats, whereas the big three all had 20 seats or more. No other party managed to get 10 or more seats in parliament.

    Then you get to 2010 where you see a terribly fragmented political landscape. The exception to the historical rule. 7 parties had 10 or more seats.

    Small parties, historically, tend to do very badly in the Netherlands. The 2012 election results are rather in line with what historically happens in the Netherlands, much more so than 2010. To say then that the small parties did badly because the 2012 elections were about who would become PM (more of a media narrative than anything else) is something which I would not consider a satisfactory theory.
    Last edited by Justinian; 14th September 2012 at 12:14 PM.
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  10. #50
    hiker hiker is offline

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    Pro-Union Parties win comfortably in Holland

    Nothing in the European forum on this....????

    Dutch Liberals claim election win - The Irish Times - Thu, Sep 13, 2012

    I'm not surprised that this news has raised few posts on Pie....
    but given that the anti-Union party of Gerd Wilders was shown the door, I'm guessing this does not fit with the general anti-Union agenda online.
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