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Thread: Start a votes for emigrant campaign?

  1. #141
    Politics.ie Regular O'Sullivan Bere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoonassa View Post
    We pay people to do those jobs on behalf of the nation. You can apply for vaccancies if you wish to.
    Well, to be frank, the Irish government operates much like a church in that regard...it's skint with the congregants or parishioners, even if it's rich enough to pay for it. Like a reverend or priest they come smiling seeking charity. Like a church, it's quite successful at it too because it works. That's because many diaspora do care and want to help Ireland even if living abroad and many do a damn good job of it, for which ingratitude and a sense of entitlement by some--but not all for sure--is often shown in return for it.

    This includes the essentials of foreign relations itself where use of the 'honourary consul' is commonplace. Take travelling in Central America for example. Here's who you contact if you seek consular assistance in El Salvador:

    Department of Foreign Affairs - El Salvador

    Here is who Roberto “Bobby” H. Murray Meza is:

    Roberto Murray Meza – Entrepreneur Enticed by Politics | Latin Trade
    Center for Responsible Travel

    He's a successful person of Irish extraction who takes an interest in his heritage and I've seen him write articles on Irish history in Latin America. Whether he's even an Irish citizen by descent, though, I don't know. It's not a requirement, however, that an honourary consul even be a citizen IIRC. The government will pay costs associated with these duties, but it's pretty much done as a 'labour of love'.

    Such consuls are the lucky ones. Most others are just asked to 'help out', if you will, and many do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocoonassa View Post
    What you and others like you don't seem to realise or appreciate is that there are more Irish ciitizens and potential citizens outside Ireland than in it. Why should those who stay and pay the wages of the elected representatives be subjected and subordinate to the political opinions of those who do not pay and who do not have to live with the practical consequences of those choices? Any Irish citizen who wants to be a functional part of the nation needs to live in it. If you want a powerful symbol of inclusion then please, come and include yourself. Right now your voice says I didn't care enough to stay and went to follow my fortunes elsewhere. As I said earlier in the thread that's fair enough but by doing so you've forfeited the right to determine how things here are run.
    IMO, you raised very understandable arguments, and hence that's why the law is as it is. I'll raise some contrary concerns and reasonable speculations to them as I see it as follows.

    I very much get the concern about the threat of having diaspora 'run' Ireland's affairs, especially where it might be done in bad faith. The hypothetical that, for example, a campaign be done that seeks to 'hijack' Ireland with 'granny rule' registrants for the nations where they reside is certainly hypothetically possible.

    IMO, though, I think it's a largely unfounded fear. Those that do bother to pay attention to Irish politics and go through any registrations for citizenship are those with an actual interest in Ireland. Most I meet who have an Irish grandparent abroad aren't even aware of their eligibility, and for the few who do, they don't bother. Most couldn't tell you who is running for President now, or who is the President now, or anything other than the general shared cultural affinity with 'things Irish.' Some don't even care about their background at all. Moreover, it's hard enough to get people to bother to vote at home or in any nation. Plenty just aren't interested in voting. That's especially more so IMO regarding those who would have to go through the hassle of informing themselves about Irish politics, getting registered, ordering a ballot and posting it, etc. The ones who would vote IMO are those who remain keen and on top of Irish politics. In short, Ireland would be receiving informed and genuinely intended voters in reality. If for some reason, however, that proved wrong, it's also easily correctable. All that would be required is to rescind voting rights for Irish citizens abroad and make any changes to any laws, if any, accordingly without their input.

    Of the types of likely participation, many do pay taxes in other manners and spend other money and invest or help with investments, etc. As noted above, not all Irish residing in Ireland pay taxes either and in fact some even choose to live as a drain on them. Any Irish citizen is also subject to taxation should the Irish government regardless of place of residency should they choose to do so, a point I'll expand upon now.

    For every Irish citizen who lives abroad, what Ireland does affects them simply because they are citizens. That's true whether it's the Irish government or even other Irish people. For example, I have spent time in Latin America and still do have extensive relations with the Hispanic community and like to travel there. It wasn't exactly a great time being Irish when the 'Colombia 4' case erupted. FARC is widely hated there and elsewhere as a narco-terrorist group by governments and large population segments alike--including 'citizen militias' you don't want to run into if you're on their 'sh*t list'--and I made sure to take my due advisements given my Irish passport and citizenship status. Simply put, if and whenever Ireland ever chooses to get its foot in any sh!t, Irish citizens abroad are even more likely to get the hot ends of any and all 'blowbacks'. That's because it is likewise done in their name if done in an official capacity and otherwise are easy targets for anger at whatever else is done by Irish people.

    Moreover, whatever it does also can bind Irish citizens abroad just like at home as explained above. They could require conscription for example, or income tax payments, or pretty much what else it wants. Most of all, the Irish Constitution binds me and affects me no matter my residence. That's because it's the fundamental charter of all its citizens. Yet, citizens are being denied a right to have a say in what binds them.

    I prefer a balanced approach to this situation. Myself, I don't think citizen diaspora are entitled to vote for any Dáil or Seanad seat in the Oireachtas where they do not live for obvious reasons or even have a seat for diaspora there. The Oireachtas should, IMO, deal with matters relating to those at home and leave those at home with the primary duty of setting Irish policy. I do prefer, however, a vote for the President given they have symbolic power and represent the Irish people as a whole, which includes diaspora. I most certainly and fervently believe that diaspora citizens be allowed to vote on Constitutional referenda as that is the fundamental charter of the Irish people (of which all citizens form) and it effects each and every one of such citizens and acts in their name. Simply put, a citizen should have a say in what directly binds them and claims to speak for them.
    Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 28th October 2011 at 05:11 AM.

  2. #142
    Politics.ie Regular controller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauntersplash View Post
    If money and personal success are your priority, in recessionary times, you leave. That's ok with me.
    If family and country are your priority, you stay, that's ok with me too. If you love Ireland, if you love the political system, the people in general, your friends and family in particular. If you love the weather, pubs, sports, countryside, you stay. You spend your time here, pay your taxes here, contribute your labour here, raise your children here. If you leave because you want more money, then call your kids Conor and Ciara, and cry when you get drunk you can feck off. If enticing money back ionto the country is your aim, let's just say there are better ways.
    I cannot believe the stupidity of this post. A parents first duty is to their immediate family, and if that means leaving the country to look after you family because you have no job, then that is what you do. So yes I did leave to get more money. No dole is a bit of a killer, but leaving does not mean I am less Irish or hate my country. I just hate Fianna Fail

    Quote Originally Posted by sauntersplash View Post
    Of course they have a choice. Emigrants aren't limping onto coffin ships for goodness sake, they're skipping onto planes to Austrailia. Another fantasy about the Irish rears it's head. JFK becomes president and all of a sudden the Irish diaspora becomes some sort of entrepeneurial and intellectual genius race. I live here, don't gimme that crap.
    What choice would that be?? a life with no income and not even able to claim the dole because I was self employed. People do not want to leave, but they are being forced to. You are absolutely clueless.

    Quote Originally Posted by sauntersplash View Post
    I don't think it's valid to appeal to "countless generations before". At one time people emigrated because they had no food. Now, people emigrate because they have no '09 Honda Civic.
    You sound like one of the privileged few, who look down their noses at everybody else. You are an absolute arse, and seem to believe that those who left are useless and the country is better off without them. It is people like you who brought the country to its knees. People like you disgust me. I get mad reading your crap.......
    Slip! Slop! Slap! Seek! Slide!

  3. #143
    Politics.ie Regular controller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerMac View Post
    In my experience people get a very nostalgic / dreamy view of Ireland when they've lived in another country for a long while. All you'd need is one of the candidates to play the fiddle and say 'top of the morning' and the diaspora would be voting for them.
    I can assure that none of the Irish that I have met in Australia are having green dreams about misty fields and shamrocks. What most of them do have in common is a deep hatred of Fianna Fail and a desire to return home and raise their children in Ireland. Expats would like to contribute to the future of Ireland and to have a say in how it is governed so the the conditions of the country improves so that we may return. With the present generation of politicians in power I cannot see that happening.
    Slip! Slop! Slap! Seek! Slide!

  4. #144
    Politics.ie Regular O'Sullivan Bere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by controller View Post
    I can assure that none of the Irish that I have met in Australia are having green dreams about misty fields and shamrocks. What most of them do have in common is a deep hatred of Fianna Fail and a desire to return home and raise their children in Ireland. Expats would like to contribute to the future of Ireland and to have a say in how it is governed so the the conditions of the country improves so that we may return. With the present generation of politicians in power I cannot see that happening.
    This useless wall flower is a perfect case of point of that:

    Tánaiste: 'Sure isn't it grand that we're exporting our children' - YouTube

  5. #145
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    Oddly, while I can't vote in an Irish election, I still, as an Irish citizen, can fund campaigns.

    Typical that my only right is to send money.

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