A Federal structure for Ireland

[Defeated Romanticist]

Dasayev posted:

Perhaps your idea of a Belfast city state could be extended to include all of Antrim and Down, and called something like East Ulster. This may help unionists console themselves with the idea of a United Ireland.

I disagree, in terms of economy and society, a city is considerably different to the surronding country. Thats why I would syphen off Belfast.

Munion Posted:

What's needed is less government and not more.

Scrap the notion of county councils and implement a dozen or so regions based on geographical logic and not history.

Scrap the pointless Seanad.

Replace the position of County/City Manager with a directly electable (ie. actually accountable) position of Mayor/Governor for each region.

Scrap the stupid idea of 3/4/5 seater constituencies whose boundaries have to be constantly drawn and redrawn. Instead each of the dozen or so regions becomes a constituency and a balance is struck between direct candidate votes and party list votes ala. Scotland.

Total Elected Officials
1 President
166 TDs
12 Regional Governors
X Amount of Regional Councillors

We do need less govt as an end in itself. The state in and of itself is not inherently evil as libertarians would have you beleive. What we need is accountable govt on a small scale where no-one has too much power.

MacEHaVelly Posted:

...Leinster state....with Enniscorthy as capital.................

First place in Ireland where the tri-colour was raised, 1798 and besides, I'm from there. Do I need any other reason?

fergalr posted:

I've always thought that the only way for Ireland to work if reunited would be in a federation, with either NI as is or the province of Ulster as one state and the rest as the other. The 26 counties have had 80+ years of political union as a unitary state, and that rarely changes in countries, unless for ethnic reasons (Spain and Belgium..).
Plus, if you divide it up too much, then Dublin will be far and away the richest state and Connaught the worst off.

I disagree, look at Germany, they have a federalised structure for a unitary *nation* because it was traditionally divided politically, as was Ireland. Even areas which never had a single state such as Sachsen Anhalt got there own state post '90. This misconception that Dublin would steam ahead while Connacht would rot is a myth. Look again to Germany, Baden Wurtenburg is one of the richest provinces and one of the smallest and most remote. Yet before the 1870 unification it was far away from Germany's economic dynamo in the ruhr region.

Munion posted:

As Dublin is the largest population centre it will obviously be the richest region as it will supply the greatest tax revenue.

Lose the English enforced idea of counties they by and large make little sense. Have you ever studied the county boundary between Carlow & Kilkenny and wonder wtf it is the way it is? It makes no logical sense as county boundaries rarely follow obvious geographical boundaries like rivers or mountains.

Why should the political region of Dublin stop where it is and not encompass what everyone these days regards as the Greater Dublin Metropolitan area? It would make far more sense from an administration point of view. Think of road building, water supply, refuse collection etc.

Why should Longford and Wexford be included in the same political administration area?

Why should a significant part of the Limerick Metropolitan area be located & administered by Clare CC?

The collection of taxes could still be done on a national level with the re-distribution in a block payment by central govt like is being done in the North. County and provincial boundaries may make no logical sense but in the words of Sir Francis Bacon "No worldly thing is more dear to men than their name". I agree with you about the greater Dublin area, and the need for a greater Limerick and cork areas.

[fergalr]

Germany has been federal since unification of the German principalities under Wilhelm I. It's very different.

[Dasayev]

This fascination with federalism - where does it come from?

We spend hundreds of years trying to unite the country in independence and if it ever happens (personally I would say 10-15 years), you want to go and break it up again and create divisions where there aren't any.

A Belfast City State and a Dublin City State

You would think we were living in a country the size of France - we're not.

The island is 360 miles long at its longest - when you consider the NDP and Transport 21 it measn you should be able to drive from Cork to Belfast in 4 hours tops. But you want that to mean passing between 5 different federal entities?

First things first, let's start by uniting Orange and Green into a 32 county republic that we all can buy in to - then let's worry about how 32 counties should be administered.

The country is already divided into county councils. Dublin is one of the smallest counties in Ireland, yet it is divided into three separate counties again.

A federal Ireland would replace these largely powerless but costly councils with a proper local government. Five or six federal areas replacing over 26 councils is clearly a reduction in the size of government.

Powerful centralised government has left the country lobsided. If say, Connacht is ever to be as properous as Leinster, then it needs a proper government to make that happen.

[fergalr]

They need to steam-roll those mountains, for a start.

[Defeated Romanticist]

fergalr Posted:

Germany has been federal since unification of the German principalities under Wilhelm I. It's very different.

It was not from 1933-1949. Governmental power in Germany was both haphazard and clumsy. Wilhelm basically bought the Southern states in 1871 and took the northern states. They retained a few peicemeal differences but it was not a federalised state. And besides Ireland is not a normal unitary nation let alone a state.. Look post-'49 to see the benefits of federalism. Whether we like it or not we are a regionaly conscious country, with the exception of Serbia perhaps the most regionally conscious nation in Europe for our size.

[fergalr]

Yeah but for a long period from 1933 to 1949, Hitler was in power.
And then the country was divided up like a cheese wheel between the victorious WWII powers (and the French :twisted: ).

[UnholyApollo]

Simple United Federal Ireland Model

Greater Belfast Assembly: Area covers the Belfast, Castlereagh and parts of the Newtownabbey & North Down local Goverment Districts run on the same basis as the Greater London Assembly with a directly elected Lord Mayor of Belfast with executive powers.

Greater Dublin Assembly: Area covers Dublin City & County and replaces Fingal, South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Councils & Dublin City Council exact same as in Belfast with directly elected Lord Mayor.

Provincial Assemblies for Ulster(stormont), Munster(cork), Leinster(Dundalk, Navan, Athlone or Kilkenny) & Connaught(galway)

At county council level the position of Chairman/County mayor be merged with County manager to make a Directly elected position of County Secretary.

Any Thoughts!!!

[Munion]

Simple United Federal Ireland Model

Greater Belfast Assembly: Area covers the Belfast, Castlereagh and parts of the Newtownabbey & North Down local Goverment Districts run on the same basis as the Greater London Assembly with a directly elected Lord Mayor of Belfast with executive powers.

Greater Dublin Assembly: Area covers Dublin City & County and replaces Fingal, South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Councils & Dublin City Council exact same as in Belfast with directly elected Lord Mayor.

Provincial Assemblies for Ulster(stormont), Munster(cork), Leinster(Dundalk, Navan, Athlone or Kilkenny) & Connaught(galway)

At county council level the position of Chairman/County mayor be merged with County manager to make a Directly elected position of County Secretary.

Any Thoughts!!!

It should be about minimising bureauracy not increasing it.

You'd have
- The President
- The Dáil
- The Seanad
- Provincial Assembly
- County/City Mayors
- County/City Councils

Best to cut away a lot of that
- The President
- The Dáil
- Regional/City Assembly
- Regional/City Governors

[ivnryn]

What's needed is less government and not more.

Scrap the notion of county councils and implement a dozen or so regions based on geographical logic and not history.



12 Regional Governors

That works out at around 500k per region.

Something like:

Greater Dublin Area (3 regions)
- Dublin City
- Dublin County (excl city)
- Meath/Kildare/Wicklow/Louth

Ulster (4 regions)
- Belfast Metropolitan Area
- Antrim/Down (excl Belfast)
- Donegal/(London)Derry/Tyrone
- Fermanagh/Cavan/Monaghan/Armagh

Leinster (1 region)
- rest of Leinster

Munster (3 regions)
- Cork
- Limerick/Clare/Kerry
- Tipperary/Waterford (and maybe steal Kilkenny from Leinster)

Connacht (1 region)

Dissolve the county councils.

Set it so that there are 144 regional councilors. The size of each council is proportional to the number of residents. Share them using Webster's method based on the most recent census.

They would be elected via PR-STV. I think allowing a region to be split into 2 would be reasonable, with a rule that the 2 halves have similar population (say max diff 2-1) and that the boundaries follow county/city lines.

Scrap the pointless Seanad.

What about:

- to stand for the Senate you need the nomination a regional councilor.

- 48 Senators are elected via public ballot of the regional councilors using Meeks method.

- 12 appointed by the Taoiseach (but if a new Taoiseach takes over he can replace them with a different 12)

Ofc, then there is the question of the Senate's powers.

Replace the position of County/City Manager with a directly electable (ie. actually accountable) position of Mayor/Governor for each region.

Ok, but would have to be a better system than STV as it isn't that great when there is only 1 candidate. Maybe condorcet or approval voting.

You could also make this person the chair of the council, much the same way the Vice-President is the chair of the Senate.

Scrap the stupid idea of 3/4/5 seater constituencies whose boundaries have to be constantly drawn and redrawn. Instead each of the dozen or so regions becomes a constituency and a balance is struck between direct candidate votes and party list votes ala. Scotland.

PR-STV is a pretty good system. A rule that says a constituency must include at least 100k people and must follow county/city/old constituency boundaries would be sufficient.