Why is FF always the largest?

[THR]

Fianna fail of Ireland is the second most succesful party in its country in Europe. Only the Swedish social democrats have fared better in this respect. In Sweden, the social democrats have been the largest party since the 20`s and have ruled Sweden for the 60 of the past 70 years.

However, in the recent Swedish elections, the social democrats, though remaining the largest party, ended up in opposition and a right-wing alliance governs Sweden now.

I understand that FF has been the largest party in Ireland since the 30`s.Why is that? Sense of security? Has there really been no alternative for a position of the largest party? Of course,if the largest party alone cannot get enough votes together with its allies, it will end up in opposition but it is still the largest party.

One party always being the largest is not healthy democracy.

[Sidewinder]

Because the other parties are even more rubbish than FF.

Sad but true.

There hasn't been a coherent, competent, credible opposition to FF since...well, ever. FF only ever lose when the people just can't take them any more, but they always get back in again at the next election by default, because after a change the electorate think "Jaysus, them cute hoors in FF were bad, but this shower are worse!"

Yes, this is a terrible state of affairs. No, I don't see it changing any time soon.

[FutureTaoiseach]

A: Traditional family allegiances stemming largely from the Civil War.

B: FF wrapping themselves in the Tricolor gets the nationalist vote, particular from people interested in the NI issue. FG is either neutral between the 2 sides in NI or partitionist in principle. Some well-known members speak against a UI and that doesn't help them with nationalist voters. FG also has a nasty habit of some of its members expressing sentiments that alienate ppl in general beyond nationalism e.g. Gay Mitchell speculating about the future role of the British monarchy in Ireland.

C: FG is notorious for infighting e.g. John Bruton deposed by Michael Noonan replaced by Enda Kenny....a divided party traditionally goes down badly with voters i.e. are they too busy fighting themselves to govern us effectively?

D: To get into govt, FG needs the support of leftwing parties, thereby alienating non-leftwing voters who know a vote for FG is a vote to bring Socialists like the Labour Party etc. to power.

E: FG briefly threatened to catch up with FF in the earlu 1980's - they got 39% of the vote in 1982. However in 1987 they lost 25% of their vote to the newly founded PD's and since then every election has them under 30%.

[rockofcashel]

Because, despite what FG supporters will say here, ideologically, FF and FG are the same party.

They were all in the one party once even (Sinn Fein, the party that founded the state, :wink:, before ahem .. well trying to gety rid of it all over again "see, I acknowledged it before you guys had a fit)

On the vast majority of issues, you would find it hard to see any major policy diferences between FF and FG.

So people just vote for the bigger one.

[The Trinity Politick]

......and the PDs subsequently pissed away that opening to become THE oppositon party, instead returning to the FF fold.

The PDs could have won 30+ seats has they enough candidates in 1987, according to some polls in the run up to that election.

[The Trinity Politick]

The current Sinn Fein never founded the Irish State....c'mon pls

You can't resurrect a name of a political party and then assume its history is your own history.

Cumann na nGael founded the state as the first government party, and was joined ten years in 1933 later by its opposition Fianna Fail...formed from a destroyed Sinn Fein.

The current Sinn Fein has nothing to do with Arthur Griffith and is simply 100% Gerry Adams.

I mean, you can paint a pile of crap gold and call it a nugget, but id rather not paint crap

[President Bartlet]

FF are always the largest because the rest are just so crap.
It is time for some sort of realingment within the party system

FF/PD - same thing don't need a mini me version

FF/FG?

FG/Lab?

Lab/Greens?

FF/SF?

[RBinge]

A: Traditional family allegiances stemming largely from the Civil War.

So, seeing as the Pro Treaty tradition was in the majority immediately after independence, does that mean that Anti Treatyites outbred Pro Treatyites? That makes as much sense as the dead generations of the 1918 election governing this country ala RSF.

B: FF wrapping themselves in the Tricolor gets the nationalist vote, particular from people interested in the NI issue. FG is either neutral between the 2 sides in NI or partitionist in principle. Some well-known members speak against a UI and that doesn't help them with nationalist voters. FG also has a nasty habit of some of its members expressing sentiments that alienate ppl in general beyond nationalism e.g. Gay Mitchell speculating about the future role of the British monarchy in Ireland.

Sources please. Please quote me specific examples where any Fine Gael politician spoke against a United Ireland. Otherwise I will assume that you are imagining something that doesn't exist.

Gay Mitchell's comments weren't what I would agree with - that's democracy - but at least he was attempting to engage with the fundamental question of to what extent would WE facilitate a united Ireland.

C: FG is notorious for infighting e.g. John Bruton deposed by Michael Noonan replaced by Enda Kenny....a divided party traditionally goes down badly with voters i.e. are they too busy fighting themselves to govern us effectively?

You conveniently forget the Haughey wars, and indeed the founding of the Party that you use as an avatar. You conveniently also forget the physical assault on the PD's founder member Jim Gibbons outside the Dáil by alleged Haughey supporters.

D: To get into govt, FG needs the support of leftwing parties, thereby alienating non-leftwing voters who know a vote for FG is a vote to bring Socialists like the Labour Party etc. to power.

So, the 1994-7 government was like that of Fidel Castro in Cuba? Can you point to me the free Medical Cards, nationalised industries and whatnot that resulted from full blooded Socialism in Ireland? Or is it more convenient politically to forget the Government that produced double digit growth and a real reduction in Income Tax?

E: FG briefly threatened to catch up with FF in the earlu (sic) 1980's - they got 39% of the vote in 1982. However in 1987 they lost 25% of their vote to the newly founded PD's and since then every election has them under 30%.

On those numbers the PDs would now have 9%. Instead of that they have lost two thirds of their vote since 1987 and now languish at 3%. If we have thirty percent we have ten times your vote.

Ever think that being the party for those who support Fianna Fáil but are too posh to vote for them has been electoral suicide for the PDs? Irish Liberal Party my arse.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Sources please. Please quote me specific examples where any Fine Gael politician spoke against a United Ireland. Otherwise I will assume that you are imagining something that doesn't exist.

I specifically recall an episode of Marion Finucane where they were discussing the planned military parade to commemorate the Easter Rising, and that Colm McEochaidh was on the panel, and him stating we should renounce the aspiration for a United Ireland. He went on to add that we should not accept a United Ireland unless a majority of both communities in NI decided in favour of it. No doubt there's some link that can be found in the RTE archives on this but I haven't the patience to look for it now would take a while.

On those numbers the PDs would now have 9%. Instead of that they have lost two thirds of their vote since 1987 and now languish at 3%. If we have thirty percent we have ten times your vote.

Ever think that being the party for those who support Fianna Fáil but are too posh to vote for them has been electoral suicide for the PDs? Irish Liberal Party my arse.

Testing that theory, the pact with FG in 1989 lost the PDs 8 of their 14 seats and they have hovered 4-5% ever since, suggesting your theory is flawed. I attribute this fall to 2 things: firstly, many of those who voted for the party in 1987 were anti-Haughey voters rather than liberals, making the 1989+ elections a more ideologically-pure "liberal" vote at least on economic issues. I think they have largely held their vote since because of the existences of this ideological niche in the Irish electorate that is both pro-free market and anti-Civil War politics. While I wouldn't argue that free-market policies are the preserve of PD politicians or voters, the majority of them are still emotionally attached to Civil War politics and that continues to make live difficult for smaller parties including our own.

[Pidge]

Family traditions, specifically paternal voting patterns, has a disproportionately large effect on the Fianna Fáil vote. That has died down somewhat in recent elections.


(Father's vote is on top, with the son/daughter's vote on the left-hand side. I can't find the one for parental voting patterns (as opposed to merely paternal patterns).)