Catholic control of schooling untenable -- Diarmaid Martin

[Toland]

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[Aindriu]

Good for him. It is good to see that at least one person in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is beginning to realise the fact that they cannot dominate schooling anymore.

The fact that the CC has dominated schooling here is actually a breach of the constitution which I suspect de Valera always knew.

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[tmesis2008]

IMO, the argument for religious schooling is a weak one and is only getting weaker.

I don't see why schools should be reflective of religious/superstitious parental opinion. Quite simply schools should be for education and education only. Churches should be for indoctrination.

I have never heard a good argument against that.

Some people might say religious schools are better, but obviously this for other quite worldly reasons which would not disappear if the school was secularised tomorrow.

Some People might say that parents have the rights to teach their children as they like, but no-one really believes that parents should have their children taught astronomy instead of astrology and have the department of education set exams on the same etc. Most of us actually believe that children have a right to an education

Some people say that faith helps teach children morals, but there is simply no evidence that children who are "faithful" are any more moral than children who aren't.

And, moreover indoctrination can often clash with education, and in a school education should ALWAYS win, but in a religious school that would be in doubt.

[odie1kanobe]

IMO, the argument for religious schooling is a weak one and is only getting weaker.

I don't see why schools should be reflective of religious/superstitious parental opinion. Quite simply schools should be for education and education only. Churches should be for indoctrination.

I have never heard a good argument against that.

Some people might say religious schools are better, but obviously this for other quite worldly reasons which would not disappear if the school was secularised tomorrow.

Some People might say that parents have the rights to teach their children as they like, but no-one really believes that parents should have their children taught astronomy instead of astrology and have the department of education set exams on the same etc. Most of us actually believe that children have a right to an education

Some people say that faith helps teach children morals, but there is simply no evidence that children who are "faithful" are any more moral than children who aren't.

And, moreover indoctrination can often clash with education, and in a school education should ALWAYS win, but in a religious school that would be in doubt.

I think at this time referring to the way the UK school has system has gone where the secularisation of the system has ensured the decline into mediocrity.

The schools where parents are making a clear choice where to send their children are to the Independent Religious Schools.

[tmesis2008]

I think at this time referring to the way the UK school has system has gone where the secularisation of the system has ensured the decline into mediocrity.

Evidence of mediocrity? Evidence that secularism is the cause of mediocrity? Evidence that the system has indeed been secularised?

The schools where parents are making a clear choice where to send their children are to the Independent Religious Schools.

Why? What is it about religion that makes a maths class better? Could it be that many of these schools are the older schools, with better facilities, and because they have better records they pick and choose children, and teachers, and therefore can keep their record good, whereas other schools have a more open policy?

Are you claiming that if we took an independent religious school today and made it secular tomorrow that it would decline from a lofty educational position into mediocrity? Explain exactly how that would happen.

[Aindriu]

I think at this time referring to the way the UK school has system has gone where the secularisation of the system has ensured the decline into mediocrity.

The schools where parents are making a clear choice where to send their children are to the Independent Religious Schools.

Who are bound by exactly the same curriculum, rules, regulations and quotas etc as non-faith schools. There are many non-faith schools in the UK that are achieving very high standards in edcation. Don't use the non-faith schools in sink areas to justify your desire for the continuance of religious dominance in education.

[TradCat]

Perhaps he'd have got closer to the scale of the problem if he had said that Catholic control of 92% of schools in the republic is untenable where more than 50% of the people would prefer to have a non-denominational system.

It's not really a question for "the people" but for parents. The constitution is very clear that it is the right of parents to choose and no political party is going to have a referendum to change that.

So it is in everyone's interest to work together to ensure maximum choice.

"42: The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

42.2: Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

[Gimpanzee]

I think at this time referring to the way the UK school has system has gone where the secularisation of the system has ensured the decline into mediocrity.

The schools where parents are making a clear choice where to send their children are to the Independent Religious Schools.

it has little to do with Religion and everything to do with the school environment. The exact same thing happens here with the Gaelscoilleanna - they are better schools because the kids who go there are more likely to come from homes where a greater value is placed on education

[odie1kanobe]

Evidence of mediocrity? Evidence that secularism is the cause of mediocrity? Evidence that the system has indeed been secularised?



Why? What is it about religion that makes a maths class better? Could it be that many of these schools are the older schools, with better facilities, and because they have better records they pick and choose children, and teachers, and therefore can keep their record good, whereas other schools have a more open policy?

Are you claiming that if we took an independent religious school today and made it secular tomorrow that it would decline from a lofty educational position into mediocrity? Explain exactly how that would happen.

Christianity, Education and Modern ... - Google Books

William Jeynes has studied it and researched it pretty well over last 20 years.

Parents in UK are making clear their preference
Successful schools hugely oversubscribed, figures show - Telegraph