Teachers Pay

[wexfordman]

I totally agree. Why are people so obsessed with teachers pay and they remain anoymous about their own profession. They comment at will about teachers holidays, pay, performance, stress level of work etc. Its gereralisations fed to them by the media.

Two reasons that I can think of, and I would not try and victimise yourself, most people keenly interested in public sector costs, and it is directly related to the amount of tax people pay, taxes are rising, of course people are going to be very keen on why and how best thier taxes are paid. While I appreciate you may feel victimised, dont try and dismiss the reasons why people feel so "interested" if that is the correct word. Also, remmeber, teachers and ps workers in general are quite happy to agitate and use publicity to maintain their pay and conditions, so the general tax paying public are invested in this as a result. Specifically with regards pay, performance and stress, it is teachers who are using these arguments in defence of thier own pay and conditions, many on this site, its a two way argument.

It takes the focus away from the other problems like the money that was spent on social welfare in the boom times when we invited people to Ireland to do the jobs that Irish people would not do, the money wasted on e-voting, etc etc

Well, thats a matter of opinion, there are many issues to be excersised about these days, how do you prioritise ? Its not a reason for saying not to debate the ps costs issue.

Most teachers are parttime and oftentimes dont have enough hours to qualify for pension.

Again, whats unique about this compared to any profession, private or public sector. Secondly, perhaps teachers should be adressing this issue themselves, why are there so many part time teachers, how do you reduce it, and can you show actaul real benefits and savings in the process ?

Why exactly do you feel this point needs mention, its not unique ?

Most people have to buy back years to qualify for pensions if they were parttime for years.

This is where you start to get people annoyed, you see again, there is nothing unusual about this, its pretty standard to the point that I would say, wtf ? When you are part time, if you dont have pension payments, you either do without or partake in your own private pension scheme.

What does make it unique, is as you mentioned, you get the opportunity to buy back into what is a fantastic pension scheme.

The fact that you even complain about this irks me no end, and beleive me, I'm not trying to wind you up, but here is an example related to my own circumstances. I have nearly 20 years work behind me, of which most if it I have been making my own pension contributions, 15 years of which are part ot a defined contribution scheme. 15 years savings have been reduced to 10 years savings over the last 18 months approx. What do I have to do, I have to increase my own payments no to make up for it, if it ever does. I have lost 5 years worth of my pension, and increase my payments (to about 20% of my salary accroding to my pension advisor).

Most teachers dont get a full time position for years. Im not complaining about this but pointing out the situation.Why are people who are ill informed and snatch at a piece of information they read re teachers making widly innaccurate comments as if its their God given right to comment on teachers.
This is our chosen profession, why should we feel guilty for having a job.

Dont feel guilty about your profession, but seriously, have some realism, there is nothing in what you have stated above is a genuine reason for complaint in the current circumstances, so understand why people, like myself get livid when I hear constant threat of strike action from workers who actually have it quite good. The pension levy is not unfair (it is better than a paycut) it is not justification for strike action or the threat of it.

With regards your comment about ill informed, in fairness, people are not that ill informed, the same argument could be applied to your good self and the points you made above, you are ill informed if you beleive these are gennuine reasons for complaint, they are not, particularly when you hold them up against what many private sector workers are experiencing. If you dont pay the levy, private sector workers are going to have to pick up the tab, at the same time that they are taking huge hits and insecurity themselves (I know we are all tax payers, but you know what I mean).

Your comment about e-voting machines I agree with, but in the same regard as you said, who are you to comment about e-voting machines, have you ever spent a week as a politician ? No you have not, but I agree with you, and you are informed enough to have and make an opinion on the matter.

[rebelexpat]

I would like to clarify the following point and give a little more depth to teacher's opposition to paying the pension levy.

There's a very real fear out there that our pensions are effectively null and void - a fear which I suspect is fueling anger about having to pay the levy. Many of us believe that we will never see our contributions again and that the extra levy is simply a guise for pumping money into a black hole in the banking system. (I'm really open to any facts on this matter, I have never seen investigating the nuances of my pension to be more imporatnt than doing the job so I suppose I don't know a lot about it)

I have no objection to the levy in principle (other than the fact that no taxpayer should have been exposed to this economic meltdown and government bungling in the first place) but I would rather, at this point, have it called a pay cut and cease to make these compulsory pension payments. If I'm going to put money away for my family - I'd rather do it myself now - I just don't trust the government to handle it.

[wexfordman]

I would like to clarify the following point and give a little more depth to teacher's opposition to paying the pension levy.

There's a very real fear out there that our pensions are effectively null and void - a fear which I suspect is fueling anger about having to pay the levy. Many of us believe that we will never see our contributions again and that the extra levy is simply a guise for pumping money into a black hole in the banking system. (I'm really open to any facts on this matter, I have never seen investigating the nuances of my pension to be more imporatnt than doing the job so I suppose I don't know a lot about it)

I have no objection to the levy in principle (other than the fact that no taxpayer should have been exposed to this economic meltdown and government bungling in the first place) but I would rather, at this point, have it called a pay cut and cease to make these compulsory pension payments. If I'm going to put money away for my family - I'd rather do it myself now - I just don't trust the government to handle it.

Seriously, if your pensions are null and void, then we are all truly truly ********************ed..... less value perhaps if things get really bad, but nothing unusual here.
The levy should have been a pay cut plain and simple, but I think ps unions have to take some responsibility for that, our cowardly ministers were afraid to face up to them and tried to take the easiest option (which is more beneficial to you anyway than a pay cut).

[Proposition Joe]

Proposition Joe
- "sub-intellectual" is just a word - totally pejorative to indicate a dismissive view of somebody's argument - it's not a sneaky "madey-uppey" (!!) word.

- the relevance of your king/queen metaphor totally escapes me

- you maintain that this is a discussion site suggesting that there are inherent rules of engagement - then proceed to rebuke my "orthodoxy" cheerfully unaware of the incongruity

- Ellie has been "bullying" other posters in her facile manner over the last few weeks - I refer you to her posts - but she is a damsel-in-distress and across the plain gallops Sir Joe her noble knight-errant.

-when I joined PI what struck me most was the level of vitriol contained in many posts - members posted each other in terms of rage and utter contempt - to "argue the issue on its merits" seemed very much a discretionary option

-I did not seek "personal identifying information" - Ellie keeps reminding us that she is a trainee-teacher (and , bizarrely , that she has a child ) - so where do I seek personal knowledge of her ? If you are half the gallant knight you think you are you will apologise for this unfounded imputation. To know that I live far from her is all the reassurance I need.

Above all I dislike your condescending tone - I am gravely disappointed in you.

Well there were all manner of demands earlier on this thread that Ellie name the school she was sub'ing in, the profressors she studied under, and so on. If Wilbur stood apart from the the braying mob on that score, then fair enough, I do apologize.

The king/queen reference was simply an attempt to convey how flush a youngster would feel on receiving their first real pay-cheque. I remember mine, from a summer job nigh on twenty year ago. Seems like buttons now in retrospect, but at the time I thought it was a serious chunk of change.

[avagardner]

[QUOTE=wexfordman;1589888]


"...so understand why people, like myself get livid when I hear constant threat of strike action from workers who actually have it quite good. The pension levy is not unfair (it is better than a paycut) it is not justification for strike action or the threat of it."

I dont agree with strike action and most of the teachers I know do not want to strike. I think the teachers unions have lost touch with reality. Not all teachers agree with the unions.I never mentioned that i wanted to strike due to pension levy.
I did not say that the pension levy was unfair.
You assumed that was what i thought!! and what all teachers think. That is why I think people are ill informed.
I only wanted to point out that we dont get the dream pension that some people think we get, i was not complaining about it. I understand where you are coming from.

[rebelexpat]

Seriously, if your pensions are null and void, then we are all truly truly ********************ed..... less value perhaps if things get really bad, but nothing unusual here.
The levy should have been a pay cut plain and simple, but I think ps unions have to take some responsibility for that, our cowardly ministers were afraid to face up to them and tried to take the easiest option (which is more beneficial to you anyway than a pay cut).

I appreciate the insight and thank you. It has been a big worry to me since the levy was announced and I know I'm not alone in that. I honestly feel that I couldn't trust Brian Lenihan with a pair of scissors - let alone my two children's future if anything happened to me in the morning.

[wexfordman]

"...so understand why people, like myself get livid when I hear constant threat of strike action from workers who actually have it quite good. The pension levy is not unfair (it is better than a paycut) it is not justification for strike action or the threat of it."

I dont agree with strike action and most of the teachers I know do not want to strike. I think the teachers unions have lost touch with reality. Not all teachers agree with the unions.I never mentioned that i wanted to strike due to pension levy.
I did not say that the pension levy was unfair.
You assumed that was what i thought!! and what all teachers think. That is why I think people are ill informed.
I only wanted to point out that we dont get the dream pension that some people think we get, i was not complaining about it. I understand where you are coming from.

I was not referring specifically to you saying the levy was unfair or not, I appreciate your clarification, but with regards your point about people being ill informed, and specifically in relation to your point about not wanting a strike.

1) Teachers union meetings the other week, threatened action over the levy, strike action being one of them. This was deliberatley publicised by the unions at the conferences, dont be surprised that people are of the opinion that teachers are in favour of strike and beleive that teachers are militant over the levy.

2)look at the publicity the teacher who confronted the minister of education over her income, that publicity as a whole did not go down well with the public.

Dont blame the media for picking up on this and dont blame the public for thier interpretation of it, blame your union for poorly representing you.

Re the pension, I'm afraid it is a dream pension, you just dont realise it. Dream may not be the right word, but you have an extremely good pension, the points you raised in complaint of it are actually not somehting I would complain about

One other snippet, I actually found this amusing, a friend works in the ps, she stared ranting about the levy when it was brought in, saying that trouble will be ahead if they force it in, they are not standing for it (she works in the hse). Anyway, one comment she made was that they prob wont have to do much, the teachers will prblably sort it out for them You can take it as heresay or whatever, I swear its true though, make of it what you will.

[Proposition Joe]

Im still perplexed why Joe is not on his sons Board of Management?

Mar níl mo chuid gaeilge ro-líofa. An dtuigeann tú anois a Bhonzo?

[wretchedwilbur]

Well there were all manner of demands earlier on this thread that Ellie name the school she was sub'ing in, the profressors she studied under, and so on. If Wilbur stood apart from the the braying mob on that score, then fair enough, I do apologize.

The king/queen reference was simply an attempt to convey how flush a youngster would feel on receiving their first real pay-cheque. I remember mine, from a summer job nigh on twenty year ago. Seems like buttons now in retrospect, but at the time I thought it was a serious chunk of change.

I gladly accept your honourable apology P Joe - a gracious act.
I know you stand by the rest of your post and I'm fine with that.
Cheers mate !

[uriah]

wretched by name....... a period a maternity skill? Ermmm no, that's nature hon. I take it you have no degree so - unless there's a new one in name calling. I said teacher's pay is very good, that is a positive for me - I just don't have a sense of entitlement yet, and I hope I will never feel that way. Wretched by name eh Wilbur? And you didn't take me to task pet. If you stop attacking me and others you might be taken seriously... then again....

You obviously feel 'entitled' to comment on the teachers' conditions of employment - you did say that the pay was too much for the hours and days worked.

Have you tried reading posting in full before commenting? Have you tried reading your own contributions before posting them? I know how easy it is to make mistakes / typing errors etc. but having allowed for this, I still have difficulty understanding some of your postings (see first sentence above). It may be my fault, of course.