Teachers Pay

[Proposition Joe]

Pah, look again, it is not a PR scheme, it is an additional supplementary income available to those who fulfill certain criteria and submit themselves for evaluation, none of which is contingent on student’s grades.

Grades do factor in the assessment. How do you think the excellence in results and outcomes is established?

Why take my word for it? Surely someone who's been through an assessment in the UK would know, right?

Well as it happens, here's a comment from a teacher who got the Advanced Skills Teacher assessment (a precursor to, now running parallel with, the ETS scheme):

"You have to be able to show consistently excellent results. Given that you'll need two years to produce a set of GCSE results..."

No go away you pigeon minded fool.

Oh, you out-did yourself there. Such an eloquent put-down. Go on admit it, you were on the debate team in school, right? It shows.

[wexfordman]

Oh, you out-did yourself there. Such an eloquent put-down. Go on admit it, you were on the debate team in school, right? It shows.

"Were", I think he still is!!

[Kevin Doyle]

Thats a matter of opinion, when you take the course of the thread into consideration (of course that would mena having to read it without jumping to conclusions now kevin), it is pedantic.




This scheme here BBC NEWS | UK | UK Education | Green Paper | Performance pay: Head to head (dated 1999) is not about number of posts, it is not a promotion scheme, it says nothing about promotion.

It has its merits, only a fool would dismiss them

I said it was a promotion in everything but name.

Its obvious you haven't actually read up on the literature associated with these posts but that doesn't surprise me.

See the bit in bold.

Appointment
46. Once the assessment procedure, including any independent review, has been completed in
relation to all relevant applications, the school should make an appointment to the Excellent
Teacher post using its normal appointment procedures and processes.
47. Once a teacher has met the Excellent Teacher standards they are eligible to apply for any
Excellent Teacher post.
48. Once appointed to a post, an Excellent Teacher’s performance objectives and
training/development needs should be agreed/set in light of their new duties. Their overall
performance should be assessed in that context and in accordance with the school’s
performance management policy.
49. A teacher who has met the Excellent Teacher standards may only be paid as an Excellent
Teacher whilst they hold an Excellent Teacher post.
50. Teachers who have been successfully assessed against the Excellent Teacher standards but
who have not been appointed to a post should not be expected to perform the professional
duties of an Excellent Teacher.
51. On appointment to an Excellent Teacher post the teacher must be placed on the Excellent
Teacher pay point.

[Kevin Doyle]

Grades do factor in the assessment. How do you think the excellence in results and outcomes is established?

They are a factor but not contingent, If they where, every teacher from schools lower down the league tables need not apply. Seriously you need to understand the difference here especially in terms of performance related pay.

"You have to be able to show consistently excellent results. Given that you'll need two years to produce a set of GCSE results..."

And you cannot see the inherent problems with this and why it would cause discrimination?

Oh, you out-did yourself there. Such an eloquent put-down. Go on admit it, you were on the debate team in school, right? It shows.

Judging by the simplistic drivel you specialise in you still are on the school debate team.

[Kevin Doyle]

Oh I know, but you know what, the best people, the really best people to determine how best to structure reform in the ps, on how to run services properly are the ones actually doing it at the moment, they would and could make a far better job of it that whats comming, if the just faced reality, if they could drop the mindset of job protection at whatever cost, dont touch our pay and benefits, work practices are their as much to protect jobs as to run a service etc etc.

They need to take it on the chin, dump the bad work practices, dump the daft pay and benefit perks, face up to lower pay (we all are) dump colleagues who are not interested in the work they do, dump people who are not required, propose real reform rather than whinging all the time.

Dump the unions lads, they are killing you.... hey are killing all of us the same way that this ********************ty government is.

To put this into perspective you should take a look in the mirror, you post here non stop all day, every day, weekends included (a cursory glance at your posting history will easily confirm this) specifically on issues relating to the public sector and primarily on issues related to waste and bad work practices.

Now I don’t know what others think but you appear to have loads of free time to engage in on line waffle and seem completely impervious to market forces, performance related pay criteria (which by the looks of things would mean you get paid absolutely zero due to non productivity) and appear to have extremely flexible terms and conditions that allow you pontificate to others, in an extremely contradictory fashion, the virtue of hard work and accepting sacrifice and all under the umbrella of a concerned tax payer.

You are either a hypocrite or a spoofer.

[Proposition Joe]

They are a factor but not contingent, If they where, every teacher from schools lower down the league tables need not apply.

Maybe if you were the designing the assessment that would be the case. Fortunately, more able and imaginative people are involved.

The assessment could easily be based on the improvement in results for a particular cohort from one set of state exams to another.

And you cannot see the inherent problems with this and why it would cause discrimination?

So you've shifted position from grades don't count to grades shouldn't count.

Judging by the simplistic drivel you specialise in you still are on the school debate team.

Well done Kev, you recycled wexfordman's jibe, originally directed at youself.

Do try at least to show a little originality.

[wexfordman]

To put this into perspective you should take a look in the mirror, you post here non stop all day, every day, weekends included (a cursory glance at your posting history will easily confirm this) specifically on issues relating to the public sector and primarily on issues related to waste and bad work practices.

Now I don’t know what others think but you appear to have loads of free time to engage in on line waffle and seem completely impervious to market forces, performance related pay criteria (which by the looks of things would mean you get paid absolutely zero due to non productivity) and appear to have extremely flexible terms and conditions that allow you pontificate to others, in an extremely contradictory fashion, the virtue of hard work and accepting sacrifice and all under the umbrella of a concerned tax payer.

You are either a hypocrite or a spoofer.

I asusre you I am neither. You have no idea of what I do, yet again you jump to conclusions. I work in the real world, so dont trouble your little head, If I dont perform, I'l be out to door (in fact I prob will be anyway irrespective, but thats the real world kevin, you dont need to concern yourself with that). I have seen my colleages etc being whittled down from 400 in number to just over 100 over the last 2 years, I have seen my pay and conditions change dramaticaly (no impact on my basic yet), my pension decimated, my workload decreasedue to my employers downturn in revenue and subsequently investment and will either increase due to further staff reductions or due to some form of economic miracle.

The the fact that I am still employed in the same company while 75% of my colleauges have been shipped out is due to a combination of luck and ability, competence and performance on my part, you have no idea what that means.

And by the way, your posts per day are over 200% of mine. I post 1.42 avg per day, you 3.3.

[JollyRedGiant]

Given that this is another 'bash the teachers' thread I haven't read all of this - I did read the first couple of pages where discussion took place about the number of days worked in comparison to the actual number of hours worked -

surprise - surprise

took all of 20 seconds to find it - Irish teachers work more hours than teachers in France, Germany, Italy, Japan - but less than (not surprisingly) the USA.

goes back to the old saying - lies, damned lies and statistics.

I work in a school with 52 teachers - just over half of them are permanent (most of these over 55 years of age) - of the temporary teachers about one third have full-time positions - the rest have part-time hours. I, myself, don't ahve a contract. I get a phone call at 8.50am if I am needed at 9 o'clock (or anytime during the day if the need arises) and I only get paid for the time I am in the classroom. This week I will be working 19hours and 20 minutes (a teacher is out) - last week I work 6 hours - the week before 13 hours and 20 minutes. I don't get paid during the holidays - I don't get paid for preparing classes or doing corrections - I have no pension entitlements (although I have to pay the pension levy) this week I will be coaching two sessions with school teams and next week I will be supervising a school disco - 3 weeks ago I spent four hours on a Saturday supervising enterence exams and then several hours the following week correcting some of them etc. etc. And there are hundreds of teachers in the same boat as me - and there are thousands of teachers on temporary (mostly part-time) contracts. My school will lose somewhere between 4 and 6 teachers this year and I ahve absolutely no idea if I will have any work next September (and if I do how much I will have).

[libertarian-right]

My school will lose somewhere between 4 and 6 teachers this year and I ahve absolutely no idea if I will have any work next September (and if I do how much I will have).

I'm afraid that's because FF want to bail out the banks. We don't have enough money for both, now which is more important? :/

[ellie08]

Given that this is another 'bash the teachers' thread I haven't read all of this - I did read the first couple of pages where discussion took place about the number of days worked in comparison to the actual number of hours worked -

surprise - surprise

took all of 20 seconds to find it - Irish teachers work more hours than teachers in France, Germany, Italy, Japan - but less than (not surprisingly) the USA.

goes back to the old saying - lies, damned lies and statistics.

I work in a school with 52 teachers - just over half of them are permanent (most of these over 55 years of age) - of the temporary teachers about one third have full-time positions - the rest have part-time hours. I, myself, don't ahve a contract. I get a phone call at 8.50am if I am needed at 9 o'clock (or anytime during the day if the need arises) and I only get paid for the time I am in the classroom. This week I will be working 19hours and 20 minutes (a teacher is out) - last week I work 6 hours - the week before 13 hours and 20 minutes. I don't get paid during the holidays - I don't get paid for preparing classes or doing corrections - I have no pension entitlements (although I have to pay the pension levy) this week I will be coaching two sessions with school teams and next week I will be supervising a school disco - 3 weeks ago I spent four hours on a Saturday supervising enterence exams and then several hours the following week correcting some of them etc. etc. And there are hundreds of teachers in the same boat as me - and there are thousands of teachers on temporary (mostly part-time) contracts. My school will lose somewhere between 4 and 6 teachers this year and I ahve absolutely no idea if I will have any work next September (and if I do how much I will have).

The pay for substitute teachers is fantastic. Did three days and it was brilliant! When I'm qualified it'll be double. I got paid nearly 400 e for 15 hours work. Double if I was finished my degree. Please don't bleat on about bad pay and all you do. I worked in the private sector with 4 measly weeks off a year and after years there was not receiving that kind of money.