university salaries - what is going on?

[SkatesOn]

Could you post the salary scales for the non-senior lecturers and the rest of the research staff?
And include the €17k that the graduate students are on in that, would you, since they tend to do the bulk of the work with labs, tutorials, practical work, invigilating, marking exercises and so on.

It's all here:

http://www.ucd.ie/hr/html/info_for_s...les/scales.pdf

[Phinaeus]

The topic is covered in depth in today's Irish Independent: it is an absolute disgrace. Revealed: €10m pay bonanza for the top university earners - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

[dennehym]

Not sure about the tenure distinction. I guess one is either temporary or permanent as a lecturer.

Perhaps in the past; these days all are on short-term contracts.

One cannot be strung along on temporary contracts forever.

No. Just for a decade or three...

I would guess being permanent in an Irish university is effectively "tenure".

No, tenure is quite different and has genuine reasons for existing (namely that it has been found that the most productive lines of research have no initial financial incentives to pursue them so those who demonstrate ability in research were granted independence from worrying about bean counting. Hence, tenure.

Also don't think comparing to salaries for the IT bubble is realistic. Can't allow that to skew everything. That's only a small fraction of university staff. I'd wonder anyway if salary levels in that field anything near as generous these days?

Well, the salary range for mid-to-senior level developers is about the same as for lecturers in that document just posted, so I'd say yes.

70/80,000 as some kind of line manager in a multinational perhaps is realistic.

75k as a senior developer is rather low. I think maybe you need a better analogy.

But there are very few of these positions.

Do people think there are entire swarms of professors in colleges or something?

[riven]

I've known engineering graduates who did. And even though that doesn't happen today, by the time a lecturer makes it to 'senior' status, they're already out of pocket by a substantial amount compared to what they would have been earning in industry, especially in IT.

And don't forget, lecturers don't have tenure and are all on contract, not all of which are being renewed.

Life in academia isn't roses and tea for everyone y'know.

That depends.

Noone in my engineering class or the one before or after got initial contract more than 35K average was set at 29.5K. For chemical engineers (3rd best pay after oil engineers and aerodynamical design enginneers).

Further I know engineers in the industry who are lets face it not that good and are still under the pay brackets for normal lecturers. The reason being that they do not get increases in pay per year whereas lecturers (or at thest then one in my family) do.

yes money can increase rapidly in industry but it usually comes with a move towards management.

[dennehym]

That depends.
Noone in my engineering class or the one before or after got initial contract more than 35K average was set at 29.5K. For chemical engineers (3rd best pay after oil engineers and aerodynamical design enginneers).

4th best. You're forgetting computer engineers in that list. The year after I graduated, the median pay for my classmates was north of 30k, and in the two to five years after that, it increased. The top starting pay got really quite silly there before the pop.

yes money can increase rapidly in industry but it usually comes with a move towards management.

But that's a path that about half of all engineers take - more if you include team leads and other technical lead roles in the 'management' umbrella.

[TheBear]

Further I know engineers in the industry who are lets face it not that good and are still under the pay brackets for normal lecturers. The reason being that they do not get increases in pay per year whereas lecturers (or at thest then one in my family) do.

Most lecturers would have completed a Masters and PhD by the time they take up a long-term teaching position; many engineers in industry would not have put this amount of investment into their education.

[riven]

Most lecturers would have completed a Masters and PhD by the time they take up a long-term teaching position; many engineers in industry would not have put this amount of investment into their education.

Not necessarily true.

But of course you are therefore saying that experience is not worth the same amount as the extra study. Doing a MSc or PhD is unlikely to find you a better initial job in engineering (indeed a PhD can severly lessen your horizon; fast track to R&D). There is nothing like industrial experience to learn what it is to be an engineer. It is a common proble that engineering graduates are a bit too green when they enter nad it is generally due to too many books and not enough sense.
Its only advantage is for promotion but you still have to be a good engineer for that. Most of the sucessful engineers I know (ended up in management) did MA rather than extra on top of BEng.

I have a MSc in engineer and I can honestly say I do not know what the fuss is about. I have learned more on the job in 6 months than I learned in my MSc. I have seen a lot of crap in MSc and PhD reports and I can say that all those letters do not make you a better engineer or lecturer.

[riven]

4th best. You're forgetting computer engineers in that list. The year after I graduated, the median pay for my classmates was north of 30k, and in the two to five years after that, it increased. The top starting pay got really quite silly there before the pop.But that's a path that about half of all engineers take - more if you include team leads and other technical lead roles in the 'management' umbrella.

Apparently maybe even work: Ever hear of fire protection engineers? Neither did I but is classed by american engineering council as highest paid. OR was it 6th?

The figures I was using were those used by iCheme for britian and Ireland, not true for France for example and I expect a lot of variation.

[dennehym]

The thing about the PhD (not so sure about the MSc really, that seems to be coming more and more under the heading of CPD these days) is that it really is just a ticket to research. There really is no reason to do one unless you want to do research, whether it be industrial R&D or academic.

[Horace Horse]

The thing about the PhD (not so sure about the MSc really, that seems to be coming more and more under the heading of CPD these days) is that it really is just a ticket to research. There really is no reason to do one unless you want to do research, whether it be industrial R&D or academic.

I wonder how many who post here have Ph.Ds?

(Toxic Avenger, Junior Cert doesn't count)