Children Denied Access to Irish Schools

[Mujaahid]

In typical political ‘unspeak’, Minister O’Keefe, the Education minister, denies that there is system-wide exclusion of minorities but acknowledges that, "certain subtle practices by individual schools can have the effect of discouraging particular groups from applying for places." Of course, when those ‘individual’ schools are enumerated the picture is anything but ‘individual’.

And what are these subtle practices that Minister O’Keefe speaks of? Would the forbiddance of hijab be considered a ‘subtle practice’? Or perhaps not being part of a particular denomination, a denomination that effectively runs 98% of all primary schools in Ireland, would that be a subtle practice that Minister O’Keefe is alluding to? Or would those ‘subtle practices’ run along the lines of ethnicity, culture and nationality?

Full article here: MPACUK - Children Denied Access to Irish Schools

[FutureTaoiseach]

I am opposed to segregation, so I agree that the Catholic Church's control of schools has to stop. But I also believe that the Muslim community needs to meet the host society half-way on this. Part of that is accepting a dress code that is compatible with Irish and Western culture. The notion that women must wear a hijab is not mainstream among Irish nationals nor indeed most foreign-nationals. Having said that, I might be prepared to accept allowing it to be worne in schools but not the burka. The burka prevents the teacher from seeing those who are wearing them, and in that context it risks being used by a minority to smuggle in drugs, weapons or even bombs. We have seen what has happened in the UK, France, Spain, the Twin Towers etc. and I firmly believe that allowing the burka in schools would amount to surrender to the most extreme elements of radical Islam and a view of females as subservient in society that is widespread in the Muslim world, which largely treats women as second-class citizens. If you make concessions to Islamic radicalism, then it's a slippery slope. Assimilation is the way forward for successful integration. Tolerance goes both ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Those who can't live with our rules can go elsewhere.

[jfk2008]

The notion that women must wear a hijab is not mainstream among Irish nationals nor indeed most foreign-nationals. Having said that, I might be prepared to accept allowing it to be worne in schools but not the burka. The burka prevents the teacher from seeing those who are wearing them, and in that context it risks being used by a minority to smuggle in drugs, weapons or even bombs.

Clearly a risk that teachers of junior infants classes should not have to face.

Tolerance goes both ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Those who can't live with our rules can go elsewhere.

That attitude applied to gay men and women for most of Irish history and still prevails in many parts of Ireland.

Does your 'tolerance' only extend to people like yourself?

[Trampas]

Clearly a risk that teachers of junior infants classes should not have to face.

What a ridiculous post. Surely you have noted those cases in other jurisdictions. Not a junior infant to be found. Just teenagers sent out front by male relatives intent on making a political point.

[martel]

Clearly a risk that teachers of junior infants classes should not have to face.



That attitude applied to gay men and women for most of Irish history and still prevails in many parts of Ireland.

Does your 'tolerance' only extend to people like yourself?

You do realise you are backing up Liam Egan, who has extremely negative views of homosexuality, who says that in many cases, women who are raped have themselves to blame for dressing "provocatively" and who says that the original Taliban had "noble aims"? The same guy who says that muslims should not integrate and who wants the position of girls as second class citizens enshrined in Irish schools with the wearing of the hijab. The minister of education Batt O'Keefe shamefully left this to principals instead of banning it outright. Imagine being under pressure from fundamentalists like Egan? What decision would you make then? His wife is on record as saying she would support the full burka being worn in Irish schools. Have you any shame? Still, mustn't be "culturally insensitive" eh? I imagine you would have very different opinions if it was catholics acting up.

[martel]

And in this thread,
http://www.politics.ie/labour/38019-...-racism-4.html
Egan calls muslims who don't want exreme shariah law implemented "house slaves". Naturally he is 100% in favour of shariah in Ireland. Penny dropping yet?

[jfk2008]

You do realise you are backing up Liam Egan, who has extremely negative views of homosexuality, who says that in many cases, women who are raped have themselves to blame for dressing "provocatively" and who says that the original Taliban had "noble aims"? The same guy who says that muslims should not integrate and who wants the position of girls as second class citizens enshrined in Irish schools with the wearing of the hijab. The minister of education Batt O'Keefe shamefully left this to principals instead of banning it outright. Imagine being under pressure from fundamentalists like Egan? What decision would you make then? His wife is on record as saying she would support the full burka being worn in Irish schools. Have you any shame? Still, mustn't be "culturally insensitive" eh? I imagine you would have very different opinions if it was catholics acting up.

You do realise that you've jumped to conclusions that aren't in the slightest warranted by my posts on this thread or any other thread dealing with similar topics?

I want a secular education system, where schools are owned and operated by the state and where there is no religious ethos or instruction.

I also want children of all religions and none to be treated equally in those schools which are funded by the taxpayer.

Part of that is allowing children of all religions and none to wear what they like (or what their parents like) in school and allowing children of all religions and none to attend their nearest school.

There is no inconsistency in supporting a separation of church and state and supporting the right to freedom of expression (including religious expression) to the extent that it doesn't impinge on the separation of church and state.

For the record, in case you're still not clear, I do not support Liam Egan's views on the issues you mention.

However, I do support the right of any Irish citizen to allow their children to express their religious beliefs (including the wearing of clothing of religious significance) and to have their children enrolled in a taxpayer-funded primary school even if that school has a different religious ethos to the ethos of the children and their parents.

The latter right is supported by the Constitution of Ireland and by the Supreme Court.

[FutureTaoiseach]

That attitude applied to gay men and women for most of Irish history and still prevails in many parts of Ireland.

Does your 'tolerance' only extend to people like yourself?

Tolerance is a 2-way street, and I totally reject your comparison, not least because it is radical Islamic regimes that are executing gay people now in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. Allowing the regalia of radical-Islam, like the burqa, in schools will only encourage radicals to make more demands, culminating in a demand for Sharia law like in the UK where a Times poll found 41% of Muslims in Britain wanted it. That's part of where the UK went wrong - they allowed a them and us culture to develop where Muslims and others could mark themselves out as different with burqas, separate schools etc. This contributed to societal-division. Gay people don't mark themselves visibly out as different.

I would put it like this: Imagine Ireland is your house, and guests want to stay for a while. But you would tell them that in return, they must abide by your rules, or leave. It's the same principle that should apply at national level. With all due respect, jfk2008, I think you need to remove your leftie ideological world-view for a minute and reassess your position.

[Mujaahid]

You do realise that you've jumped to conclusions that aren't in the slightest warranted by my posts on this thread or any other thread dealing with similar topics?

I want a secular education system, where schools are owned and operated by the state and where there is no religious ethos or instruction.

I also want children of all religions and none to be treated equally in those schools which are funded by the taxpayer.

Part of that is allowing children of all religions and none to wear what they like (or what their parents like) in school and allowing children of all religions and none to attend their nearest school.

There is no inconsistency in supporting a separation of church and state and supporting the right to freedom of expression (including religious expression) to the extent that it doesn't impinge on the separation of church and state.

For the record, in case you're still not clear, I do not support Liam Egan's views on the issues you mention.

However, I do support the right of any Irish citizen to allow their children to express their religious beliefs (including the wearing of clothing of religious significance) and to have their children enrolled in a taxpayer-funded primary school even if that school has a different religious ethos to the ethos of the children and their parents.

The latter right is supported by the Constitution of Ireland and by the Supreme Court.

We both respect that we have differences but nonetheless we have found agreement in this matter.

[Mujaahid]

Tolerance is a 2-way street, and I totally reject your comparison, not least because it is radical Islamic regimes that are executing gay people now in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. Allowing the regalia of radical-Islam, like the burqa, in schools will only encourage radicals to make more demands, culminating in a demand for Sharia law like in the UK where a Times poll found 41% of Muslims in Britain wanted it. That's part of where the UK went wrong - they allowed a them and us culture to develop where Muslims and others could mark themselves out as different with burqas, separate schools etc. This contributed to societal-division. Gay people don't mark themselves visibly out as different.

Could you please post evidence of Saudi Arabia executing homosexuals simply because they are homosexual. Iran, as you well know, executed two homosexuals recently because they abducted, raped and killed a little boy. Again, if you have any instances of homosexuals being executed solely because they are homosexual in Iran or any other 'Muslim' land please post it.

I would put it like this: Imagine Ireland is your house, and guests want to stay for a while. But you would tell them that in return, they must abide by your rules, or leave. It's the same principle that should apply at national level.

Ireland is my house, your analogy fails. Not to mention the fact that the house rules actually support me in my contention