Pro-Catholic Bias in the Education Sector - Unconstitutional

[Mujaahid]

The Irish Constitution proudly states: “Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations.” A noble claim, the realisation of which stops at the words, unfortunately.

Full article here.MPACUK - Pro-Catholic Bias in the Education Sector - Unconstitutional

[baldur0300]

Well it's not unconstitutional at all: Campaign to Separate Church and State v. Minister for Education

The Constitution does not contemplate that the payment of monies to a denominational school for educational purposes is an ‘endowment’ of religion within the meaning of Article 44.2.2° of the Constitution. Secondly, the Constitution contemplated that if a school was in receipt of public funds any child, no matter what his religion, would be entitled to attend it. But such a child was to have the right not to attend any course of religious instruction at the school.


What exactly are MPAC saying? Do they want all education in Ireland to be non-denominational?

[odie1kanobe]

What exactly are MPAC saying? Do they want all education in Ireland to be non-denominational?

Does that mean all Muslim schools have to close as well.

[corelli]

Well it's not unconstitutional at all: Campaign to Separate Church and State v. Minister for Education

The Constitution does not contemplate that the payment of monies to a denominational school for educational purposes is an ‘endowment’ of religion within the meaning of Article 44.2.2° of the Constitution. Secondly, the Constitution contemplated that if a school was in receipt of public funds any child, no matter what his religion, would be entitled to attend it. But such a child was to have the right not to attend any course of religious instruction at the school.


What exactly are MPAC saying? Do they want all education in Ireland to be non-denominational?

Absolutely correct. The Court indicated that the Article was to be read as a whole and not just subsection 2.2. in isolation. In circumstances where the Constitution envisages religious ethos education, not only catholic by the way, protestant schools etc also are subvented, than subventing schools cannot be considered endowing religion.

It's not unconstitutional at all.

[Mujaahid]

Absolutely correct. The Court indicated that the Article was to be read as a whole and not just subsection 2.2. in isolation. In circumstances where the Constitution envisages religious ethos education, not only catholic by the way, protestant schools etc also are subvented, than subventing schools cannot be considered endowing religion.

It's not unconstitutional at all.

Oh but it is - that ethos is predicated upon funding not by the state, but by the denomination in question. How can a State purchased school, with State salaried teachers lay claim to a Catholic ethos when the Church pays nothing whatsoever? How can such a school turn away students on the basis of denominational affiliation?

[corelli]

Oh but it is - that ethos is predicated upon funding not by the state, but by the denomination in question. How can a State purchased school, with State salaried teachers lay claim to a Catholic ethos when the Church pays nothing whatsoever? How can such a school turn away students on the basis of denominational affiliation?

Your straying off subject in relation to turning away non same religion students.

Your main point was that religious education/the state endowing (ie giving them money) was unconstitutional. The case previously mentioned was on just that point and the Supreme Court ruled that as the Constitution envisaged religious ethos education it was perfectly legal for the State to subvent them. The funding is NOT predicated on religious funding. The judgement refers to article 44 as a whole and not .2.2 in isolation.

Your last post pointedly contradicts the Supreme Court judgement. You are wrong. End of story. Read the case.

[jfk2008]

As someone who does not support state funding of denominational schools, I hope that it'll be brought to an end sooner rather than later.

This part of the Supreme Court judgement cited above may be relevant to parents who think that their child has been turned away from a school, or has been placed lower down on an enrolment waiting list, because of their religious beliefs (or lack of them):

Secondly, the Constitution contemplated that if a school was in receipt of public funds any child, no matter what his religion, would be entitled to attend it.

It may be possible to use this to build a case against a denominational school which operates a preferential enrolment policy towards children of its particular denomination, especially if the school is in a rural area or small town where the alternatives are limited or non-existent.

[corelli]

As someone who does not support state funding of denominational schools, I hope that it'll be brought to an end sooner rather than later.

This part of the Supreme Court judgement cited above may be relevant to parents who think that their child has been turned away from a school, or has been placed lower down on an enrolment waiting list, because of their religious beliefs (or lack of them):



It may be possible to use this to build a case against a denominational school which operates a preferential enrolment policy towards children of its particular denomination, especially if the school is in a rural area or small town where the alternatives are limited or non-existent.

Thats an interesting concept, however, I would not think it is proposition for being able to force the State to provide non-denominational education where there is a denominational school which is willing to educate the children in question whilst allowing them to opt out of religious education classes.

Whilst, obviously, every child has a right to education that is not proposition for having to provide schools within a small geographic area. Not every small town is constitutionally obliged to have a school.

Your argument is very interesting but fraught with difficulties.

[corelli]

This is an absolutely hilarious distortion of the issue.

Where there's a bias in education in Ireland, it certainly doesn't treat muslim parents unfairly in relation to catholic parents. The only parents treated unfairly are the plurality of Irish parents who want non or interdenominational education for their children. They are are at least 40% of parents at the moment (it depends on the precise question asked in the survey) and the number is probably growing rapidly, yet the non or interdenominational model is in use in less than 3% of schools in the country.

Whether this bias is unconstitutional is something I'm not qualified to comment on.

See here for some details on the background issues (yes it is a plug, but it's a relevant one):

Aggressive Secularist: Catholic Schools and segregation

Hey Secularist,

I am actually trying to put a paper together for possible publication at the moment. Separation of Church and State issues. Have you any interesting source material? It's for a legal journal but the material you might have need not be legalistic.

[Roger2]

This is an absolutely hilarious distortion of the issue.

Where there's a bias in education in Ireland, it certainly doesn't treat muslim parents unfairly in relation to catholic parents. The only parents treated unfairly are the plurality of Irish parents who want non or interdenominational education for their children. They are are at least 40% of parents at the moment (it depends on the precise question asked in the survey) and the number is probably growing rapidly, yet the non or interdenominational model is in use in less than 3% of schools in the country.

Whether this bias is unconstitutional is something I'm not qualified to comment on.

See here for some details on the background issues (yes it is a plug, but it's a relevant one):

Aggressive Secularist: Catholic Schools and segregation

Is there any reason why those folk who want secular education do not establish secular schools just as the Catholics established their faith schools?